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Episode 93 of Refuse Fascism podcast, uploaded January 9: Sam Goldman talks to Samuel Perry, associate professor of sociology at the University of Oklahoma, about his research into the American Christian Nationalist movement.


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Samuel Perry: Americans need to remember that January 6 was very much a religious event. That's exactly what Christian nationalism wants to see, is somebody responding with authoritarian violence. I think the leading myth is that this is somehow some kind of fringe thin, like people look at the Capitol insurrection and think, wow, that mob of people were just radicalized crazies. Who are these people? This is not a fringe thing. This is very much a mainstream thing. We're talking about millions and millions of people who can be activated.

Sam Goldman: This podcast exists because we recognize that to a great extent, what people do is determined by how they understand the world. As we unite with people from diverse perspectives to sound the alarm and prevent the consolidation of this American fascism, it's vital for people to understand that this battle isn't "America versus evil," but humanity, vs. fascism. To those who say, "This is not who we are," I've got to call bullshit in a country founded on slavery and genocide. But even for those who still cling to the idea of America, in order to defeat fascism, we need to confront that as revolutionary leader Bob Avakian says: "Your shining city on a hill is full of fascists."

The GOP: Entrenching White Christian Domination

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Thomas Zimmer: They are united behind the same political angle which is to entrench white Christian male dominance. The pro-democracy camp in America muster the same sort of energy and the same sort of determination to not allow these people to entrench white male dominance. You can have either a unity and consensus or you can turn this country into a properly functioning multiracial, pluralistic democracy, but you can't have both.

Coco Das: The norms that have governed the system for the last 50 years are not holding, you’ve got the intensifying climate crisis, the refugee crisis. The GOP as part of this global fascist movement wants to resolve through genocide, enslavement, and apartheid, basically, and the Democrats don’t have any real answer for. I think out of this very fraught time, people do need to wrestle with what kind of future they want, which is why I really appreciate you calling out this end goal. Do you want to live in a white Christian ethno-state which can only be enforced through terroristic violence and apartheid and genocide?