The Robert Mueller of Latin America
Two years ago, Maria Martin, a veteran journalist who’s been living and reporting in Guatemala for 15 years, began following families who had journeyed north to the United States, only to be separated at the border and deported back to Central America. After she teamed up with Reveal reporters Anayansi Diaz-Cortes and Aaron Glantz, the trio uncovered a stunning story about corruption that debuted on Reveal this weekend. At the center of the story is an alleged quid pro quo between U.S. President Donald Trump and Jimmy Morales, a former television comedian who was elected president of Guatemala.
After Morales was elected, Trump withdrew U.S. support for an international anti-corruption force that was investigating Morales and his family. According to Iván Velásquez, a relentless Colombian prosecutor whom many call the Robert Mueller of Latin America, Morales offered Guatemala’s material support for policies at the heart of Trump’s reelection bid. Glantz and Diaz-Cortes talk about how they reported this major investigation.
What was the initial spark for this story? What got you interested in it?
AARON GLANTZ: Maria's been living in Guatemala for 20 years. [She decided] to follow the families that were separated at the border after they were deported, to go into the villages in Guatemala and follow these families over time to see what their life was like. And so she did that. She came back from her trip, and one of her first findings was that we hear a lot about narco trafficking and drug gangs, but really, she found most people were migrating for hunger. They literally didn't have enough food. So Anayansi and I kept asking Maria, “Why? Why are the conditions so bad?” That’s when Anayansi and I started to investigate.
ANAYANSI DIAZ-CORTES: When you ask why, the next question is, “What is the root of the why?” Is it poverty, is it violence, is it drug trafficking? The corner of the why is a very boring story about institution building and democracy and constitutional law, but once you get past the initial anxiety around that boredom, you find, like, this riveting rabbit hole about how diplomacy works and how foreign policy really gets done.
The United States has so much influence in Latin America, but it's often hard as a reporter to get people in the U.S. to care about these stories. Did you find that to be a challenge here?
GLANTZ: If you read the lede to this story, it has everything: It has both presidential candidates, Joe Biden and Donald Trump; a TV comedian who becomes president of his country; the Robert Muller of Latin America; [Russian President Vladimir] Putin; Israel. ... I mean, it's so rare that you come across a story that will immediately grab the reader and listener. This story is important and it could be a John Le Carré novel.
DIAZ-CORTES: To me, the question of “What is a U.S. audience?” is different. I’m mildly interested in the Oklahoma truck drivers tuning in and more interested in people like my father tuning in, or people like my brother in Miami. So to me, it's more about expanding our notions of what the U.S. audience can be for public radio than to commit to maintaining our notions of what we think the demographic is for public radio, which is White suburban women.
For this story, you both did on-the-ground reporting in Colombia, and Maria Martin did reporting from Guatemala. Can you talk about why it was really important for you to go there?
DIAZ-CORTES: Iván Velásquez is at a crossroads where he's the last man who’s the head of the [anti-corruption] commission and who witnesses its demise as Donald Trump is coming in. So he's a key player in this narrative. And he really doesn't talk to the press at all. Finally, we [get the contact info] to talk with him on WhatsApp and get his attention. We were explaining that what we wanted to do was less like a soundbite interview and more of an oral history with him about what went down from his perspective. I said, “Well, what if we go to Colombia?” He was like, “If you come to Colombia, then I'll see you.”
GLANTZ: I said to our editorial leadership, “This is a high-stakes interview. We have to get on an airplane and go to Bogotá.” And we did. This was at the very end of February, right before the whole country locked down. The last time I went out for a drink with anyone was with Anayansi in Bogotá. There's extreme value in showing up.
This is a complex story with so many moving pieces. What do you see as the heart of the story that you want every listener and every reader to take away?
GLANTZ: A very important thing to keep in mind is this story shows that Donald Trump's immigration policy is a failure by Donald Trump's own yardstick. He says this is going to be a “big, beautiful wall” and that Guatemala is a “safe third country.” But if the facts on the ground don't line up with that, and families that Maria has been talking to are still desperate, then they will continue to come. People are running away from Guatemala in record numbers. And it doesn't matter if there's a border wall or if people are going to get separated. If you don't deal with the root causes of why people are leaving, people will leave.
DIAZ-CORTES: When you ask “why?” to these big questions about policy and immigration, the answer is always complex. It has to do with a power dynamic and the amount of power that the U.S. holds. There's immense power in being a U.S. citizen and working for a platform in the U.S. This is power that we have to be held accountable for. It's the virtue in the curse, to live right next to the empire. My mom used to say, “So far from God and so close to the United States.”
Listen to the episode: The Robert Mueller of Latin America
Read the story: How Donald Trump took down the Robert Mueller of Latin America
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