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'The Trump Administration Needs to Be Isolated in Its Anti-Science Actions': Janine Jackson ([link removed])


Janine Jackson interviewed the Union of Concerned Scientists' Rachel Cleetus about climate complicity for the October 31, 2025, episode ([link removed]) of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript.

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UCC: Brazil Hosts COP30 Climate Talks, with the World in Danger of Breaching 1.5°C

Union of Concerned Scientists (10/28/25 ([link removed]) )

Janine Jackson: The scattered headlines we're seeing on COP 30 ([link removed]) , the annual UN climate conference, this year to be held in Brazil, indicate a distressing lack of appropriately urgent US media attention to the galloping harms of climate disruption, but also, or even more so, their negligence ([link removed]) in calling countries and corporations to account.

Nothing in the US political world at the moment encourages or inspires, but our guest says it's not the time to give up or look away. Rachel Cleetus is the senior policy director with the Climate and Energy Program ([link removed]) at the Union of Concerned Scientists. She joins us now by phone from Massachusetts. Welcome to CounterSpin, Rachel Cleetus.

Rachel Cleetus: Thank you so much for having me.

JJ: What, first of all, is the meaning of these conferences, of the parties? Are they still as important as they once were deemed? And then, what's the significance of this one being hosted in Brazil?

RC: Briefly, they couldn't be more important, because now we know that climate change is here, it's at our doorsteps. We can see these devastating impacts everywhere. Just in the last week, it's been horrifying to watch this climate change–supercharged ([link removed]) storm, Hurricane Melissa, hit so many Caribbean nations. This is what climate change looks like today, and we are running out of time to help limit some of the worst impacts of it.
Politico: The government’s own data rebuts Trump’s claims about wind and solar prices

Politico (10/7/25 ([link removed]) )

And meanwhile, we have an incredible opportunity in the transition to renewable energy, energy efficiency that can help lower electricity bills ([link removed] are a different story,the average price for gas.) , that can clean up our air and water, that can help us address climate change, create jobs. This is what the future can hold if political leaders are brave enough to seize that opportunity.

And that's why these annual talks matter. This is the moment to put pressure on our political leaders to do the right thing, to do what the world needs.

JJ: And having it in Brazil brings one of the crucial elements that is sometimes overlooked to the forefront, yeah?

RC: For sure. Brazil, in a way, encapsulates some of the deep challenges as well as the incredible promise of addressing climate change. This COP is happening on the edge of the Amazon forest, the “world's lungs,” that help keep so many amazing, biodiverse ecosystems thriving, and which is now under such severe threat ([link removed]) from climate change itself because of droughts and wildfires. So this is an opportunity in Brazil to recommit to the goals of the Paris Agreement ([link removed]) , and raise ambition from countries across the world.

It's no doubt a very fraught moment as well—geopolitics, climate realities, the destructive actions of the Trump administration—but, nevertheless, the science is clear, and what people need is equally clear.

JJ: I'm going to bring you back to that, but I wanted to ask you a question about cost, and you mentioned renewables. We know how often news reporting allows cost, however that is decided, to sort of be the end of the sentence. There's a sentiment of, “Oh, well, we would love to do this obviously beneficial, humane thing, but ooh, look at the price tag.” You're an economist, and I wonder what crosses your mind when you see, not just Trump saying renewables are somehow more expensive ([link removed]) , but then journalists honoring that in the conversation, the kind of “some say, others differ" conversation we're having now about the cost of renewable energy vis-a-vis fossil fuels.
Rachel Cleetus:

Rachel Cleetus: "The fossil fuel industry is trying to preserve its own profits at the expense of people on the planet, and they are spreading a lot of disinformation."

RC: The facts of renewable energy are very clear. In most parts of the world, renewable electricity is the cheapest form of electricity ([link removed]) to install, bar none. That's why we're seeing such extraordinary growth ([link removed] surpassed 2023's record installations,system more stable and secure.) in solar and battery storage and wind. It's happening all around the world, in the US, in Europe, in China, in India.

It's just that we have to accelerate that momentum, and instead, the Trump administration is taking deeply harmful actions ([link removed]) to claw back clean energy progress in the United States. This is progress that's been delivering jobs around the country and economic benefits, keeping us on the cutting edge of innovation, and the administration wants to take that all back.

So those are the facts on renewable energy. The problem here is, of course, that the fossil fuel industry is trying to preserve its own profits at the expense of people on the planet, and they are spreading a lot of disinformation ([link removed] coal being referred to,away from corporations to individuals.) about fossil fuels, and want to fight back against this transition away from fossil fuels. Of course, it will take finance, it will take money, to make this transition happen quickly, on the scale that climate requires.

Unchecked climate change is costly. It's costly on our health, on our economy. And the science and economics shows that those costs will only escalate if we fail to curtail climate change and keep track of emissions.

JJ: We hear, as much as we hear about these annual conferences, that they set goals, and one goal in particular, based on the Paris Agreement, that's not happening, that's not being met. And if some things I read are true, well, that just means feedback loops, game over, that's all she wrote.

Among other things, that doesn't tell us how to act, that doesn't tell us how to behave going forward, does it? I mean, I'm not trying to say “look on the bright side,” but people do want to know that there is still something they can do.
Climate Reality Project: How Feedback Loops Are Making the Climate Crisis Worse

Climate Reality Project (1/7/20 ([link removed]) )

RC: Absolutely. This is a problem that we have caused as humans. We still have agency about what happens next, and it's really, really important to remember that, because it's crucial for the kind of planet we leave to our children and grandchildren. We cannot give up.

Yes, it's true that the goal of limiting global average temperature to 1.5° Celsius above pre-industrial levels, that goal is very likely going to be overshot within the next decade. But how long that happens, and how much further temperatures increase, that's up to us. That's up to the emissions choices we make today. It's up to us how much we invest in resilience and adaptation to help protect communities from impacts that are already locked in, even now, at 1.3°.

And we have to remember, as you said, that if temperatures continue to increase, we are going to set off some feedback loops ([link removed]) in the Earth's systems that we cannot put back in the box. I'm talking about things like further loss of land-based ice that can trigger even more multi-century sea-level rise increase. Those kinds of impacts, even if we bring temperatures back down, once they get unlocked, the inertia and the physical systems will cause them to continue.

So it's up to us now, as it has always been, to stand up to the fossil fuel industry, to stand up to the political leaders who are trying to obstruct progress, and really understand what's at stake now for people around the world, and for all of these precious ecosystems, all around the world, that are being threatened by climate change.
Guardian: Ex-EPA head urges US to resist Trump attacks on climate action: ‘We won’t become numb’

Guardian (10/30/25 ([link removed]) )

JJ: Let me just ask you, finally and briefly, I see today, former EPA Chief Gina McCarthy saying ([link removed]) we could look to cities and states for climate action while we have this rocketing backwards into the past at the federal level. Is that something? Is it looking at different locations? Is that something you find meaningful?

RC: Yes, it's absolutely an all-hands-on-deck moment to resist the harmful actions of this administration. And there are many states and subnational entities around the country. There are forward-looking businesses around the country that understand the reality of climate change, and are moving ahead regardless. Around the world, too, many countries remain very, very committed to climate action, because it's in their own self-interest. They, too, are feeling the brunt of impacts right now, and want cheap, affordable, clean energy.

So this is a moment where the Trump administration needs to be isolated in its anti-science and destructive actions. This is the moment for the world to forge ahead regardless, because the stakes are too high. This is not a political partisan issue. This is about our planet, our children, future generations that are looking to us to make the right choices, right now.

JJ: We've been speaking with Rachel Cleetus from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Their work is online at UCS.org ([link removed]) . Thank you so much, Rachel Cleetus, for joining us this week on CounterSpin.

RC: Thank you very much for having me.
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