September 28, 2025

Recently, I sat down with my good friend, Rick Wilson. Most of us know Rick from the Lincoln Project, where he’s proven himself to be one of the foremost experts at getting under Trump’s skin. I’ll say this: We’re definitely lucky to have Rick fighting for us instead of against us.

Rick and I spoke about his messaging strategy, what Democrats need to do to win, and why the Epstein Files cover-up just may be the largest in American history. I hope you enjoy our conversation just as much as I did. 

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Marc Elias: Rick Wilson, welcome to Defending Democracy.

Rick Wilson: Hey Marc, good to be back with you my friend.

Marc Elias: I introduced you by saying you are the man who gives Donald Trump nightmares, and I meant it. You started the Lincoln Project and your current path to do just that. Tell me, what is it that you think makes you so effective at getting under Donald Trump's skin?

Rick Wilson: For better or for worse, I lack a sense of fear or panic. I understood from a long career in the Republican Party something that happened right as Trump became powerful in the system: all of us jaded, cynical consultants were actually the guys who really believed everything we said, like the Constitution, the rule of law, personal responsibility, and integrity. The rest of the party was like, whatever comes next that gets us to the next job, we're going to be with it. And then Trump was that. I just decided I wasn't going to be a part of it. I decided I wasn't going to live a part of that in that world, that way.

I wrote a couple of books about Trump, and in 2019, I helped form the Lincoln Project with a bunch of other ex-Republicans. I continue to be the creative director of the Lincoln Project, and I recognized part of it was you couldn't fight Trump on the terms that the old politics of our country were fought on. We were never going to have a policy debate with Trump. You were never going to have an issues debate with Trump. It was going to be about emotion and gut and character and heart. So one of the things I try to show and model for other people, a lot like what you do, is just not to be afraid of the perception he's somehow all-powerful, but to go and hold up the real values that the country was really built on and not this sort of modern iteration of it that Trump represents.

Marc Elias: There is a lot in what you just said that I want to unpack because. I've said this in a number of these interviews I've done with former Republicans, that you all really are, in many respects, the heroes of this story. It's easy for me to be fighting against Donald Trump in some respects because I've been fighting against Republican politicians my whole career. Now, there's definitely a difference, and I want to be crystal clear about that: Donald Trump is...