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'Momentum Is on the Side of the People Protesting on Behalf of Palestine' Janine Jackson ([link removed])


Janine Jackson interviewed Mondoweiss's Michael Arria about Gaza "Power & Pushback" for the March 28, 2025, episode ([link removed]) of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript.

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AP: Oscar-winning Palestinian director is attacked by Israeli settlers and detained by the army

AP (3/25/25 ([link removed]) )

Janine Jackson: Listeners may have heard about the violent attack by Israeli settlers on Hamdan Ballal ([link removed]) , who had recently won an Academy Award for the documentary No Other Land ([link removed]) . He has since been released from Israeli detention, but that doesn't erase or obscure the fact that he was assaulted, arrested and spirited away in an overt attack on free expression and truth telling.

As his co-director told AP ([link removed]) : “We came back from the Oscars, and every day…there is an attack on us. This might be their revenge on us for making the movie. It feels like punishment.”

Listeners may not have heard of all the non-Oscar-winning people who have been swept off the street and disappeared for voicing any concern about the Palestinian people, who are victims of what the majority ([link removed]) of the world outside these borders are calling genocide.

Into the current context comes “Power and Pushback,” ([link removed]) a new feature at Mondoweiss written by our guest. Michael Arria ([link removed]) is Mondoweiss's US correspondent, and author of the book Medium Blue: ([link removed]) The Politics of MSNBC. He joins us now by phone. Welcome to CounterSpin, Michael Arria.

Michael Arria: Thank you for having me.
Mondoweiss: Power & Pushback: The Barnard Suspensions

Mondoweiss (3/4/25 ([link removed]) )

JJ: Mondoweiss has been reporting, calling attention to, critiquing the occupation, ethnic cleansing, genocide of Palestinians, and the US role ([link removed]) there, and US news media's distorted narrative ([link removed]) for some time now, and yet there are still so many fronts to this fight. There is still so much that calls for resistance that you saw a place for a new intervention, this new focused feature. Tell us what you're trying to do with “Power and Pushback.”

MA: I think the idea behind “Power and Pushback” is we're in a situation, as you described, where there's so much happening, and this can often be a challenge, I think, for any media, let alone independent media, to keep up with. We have a very small staff; obviously we don't have the capacity that mainstream outlets do. And with so much happening on the domestic front, especially over the last few weeks, but really dating back to the immediate aftermath of October 7, when we saw the student protests begin, I think there was a need to develop another place to catch stuff before it fell through the cracks, so to speak.

So the idea behind “Power and Pushback” is to put a focus on repression ([link removed]) that we've seen throughout the United States targeting the US Palestine movement, but also to talk about some of these local fights and local battles that not just students, but people in their communities or in their workplaces, are waging on behalf of Palestine.

And the idea is to really center that and focus on that, and just put a spotlight on these fights, and show people that they're not alone, that people are fighting. There's victories throughout certain states.

We didn't want it to be just, like, this is the suppression report, and this is all terrible things that are being done. We wanted it to have both elements, which is the idea behind the title. We want to cover the power centers; we want to cover lawmakers pushing draconian policies, and pro-Israel groups ([link removed]) moving to target Palestine protesters. And we wanted to cover, obviously, these terrible unconstitutional moves ([link removed]) by the Trump administration. But we also wanted to show the resistance that's developing domestically against those policies, and the people who are pushing for that.

JJ: It seems so important on many levels. First of all, if folks think there's just no pushback or resistance happening, that shapes their understanding of what's going on. But also, one person speaking out is easier to suppress, and they need to be backed and supported by a community, and by other people. So it's not just, “Here's a cool story about somebody resisting this.” It seems to me to give meaningful support to the individuals who are putting themselves on the line.
Michael Arria

Michael Arria: "It's not just one person or two people, it's thousands of people that oppose these policies, and are trying to fight back."

MA: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I think something we should keep in mind—one of the objectives of these kind of moves that we've seen in recent weeks from the Trump administration is to obviously crack down on dissent. And part of that is to make people fearful about fighting back, for fear that they might be scooped up by ICE if they're not a citizen, or their student organization might be suspended from the given college or university.

Really, throughout American history, whenever we've seen these kinds of campaigns ([link removed]) , they purposely have this chilling effect on the population, and that's kind of the idea. So as you say, we're kind of also developing the newsletter with this in mind to show people that it's not just one person or two people, it's thousands of people that oppose these policies, and are trying to fight back in the face of this, despite these attempts by lawmakers and pro-Israel groups to really chill the environment, and make people skeptical about standing up and voicing support for Gaza.

JJ: Particularly at a time when, it used to be, “Well, write your congressperson, if you're upset about something.” And we see the frustration with that avenue. And lots of folks will say, “Well, go out in the street; protest.” And so then you have to ask, OK, what's the follow-up to that when people do protest and they are harmed for that? You can't simply say, “We all ought to be out in the street,” and then not care about what happens to people who go out in the street, is my feeling.

MA: Absolutely true, and to your point, I think this time around with Trump, we have seen a slightly different approach from the liberal establishment. I think they've been much more willing to go along with his plans, and much more complicit. We see the anger ([link removed]) towards politicians like Chuck Schumer for approving ([link removed]) the Trump budget.

But I think that focusing on the liberal establishment and their reaction tends to get people maybe to look at the situation the wrong way. I think there actually has been a lot of protest. The numbers indicate there's been consistent protest ([link removed]) .
Just Security: Litigation Tracker: Legal Challenges to Trump Administration Actions

Just Security (1/29/25 ([link removed]) )

And there's also been a lot of attempts to challenge the Trump administration legally. So Just Security runs the tracker ([link removed]) . This is just in my head, I just wrote a piece ([link removed]) where I referenced it, but I think there's 146 current lawsuits or legal challenges attempting to stop the Trump administration, when it comes to many issues across the country. But more than a few of those lawsuits are connected to our issue, the issue of Israel/Palestine and student protest.

So like you say, people want to do something that they feel goes beyond just sending a letter, just calling and leaving a message for their congressperson. Especially because, it's worth pointing out, what we've seen for the last three weeks has really been a culmination of a push that we've seen for years, in terms of stifling ([link removed]) pro-Palestine sentiment, and in terms of stifling ([link removed]) criticism ([link removed]) of Israel. And that's really been a bipartisan ([link removed]) project. Even though Trump is amplifying it now and increasing it and has taken it to these draconian levels, we've really seen both sides of the aisle embrace some of these policies that he is currently amplifying.

JJ: Absolutely.
Forward: ‘Nobody can protect you,’ Columbia dean warns foreign students after Mahmoud Khalil’s arrest

Forward (3/13/25 ([link removed]) )

I was, along with many, struck by the statement ([link removed]) of Columbia Journalism School Dean Jelani Cobb to students, after they'd been told to scrub their social media, to essentially thought-cleanse evidence of concern for Palestinians, or protest against US actions. And this is in the context of the ICE arrest and whisking away of Mahmoud Khalil ([link removed]) . And Cobb said, “Nobody can protect you. These are dangerous times.” He's speaking to future journalists. What is the lesson there? What else might he have said?

MA: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. He said that in response to another professor making a comment, basically telling students not to post about the Middle East conflict on their social media page. I think we're really at an interesting and scary time when we look at universities and colleges in this country, just the overall state of higher education. I think that, just like I was talking about before, how the stifling of pro-Palestine sentiment is not a new issue. It's really been a culmination of something that's been happening for years.

We can say the same things about our university system, right? Over the last 40 years, 50 years maybe even, we've seen this real push to neoliberal policies across higher education, to move to a donor model, as opposed to a model where these schools are set up and live up to the grandiose words of their mission statements, this idea that they're these places that kids can go and learn about freedom of speech and have the freedom of inquiry, and learn about how society works and how the world works.

After October 7, we saw some big-time pro-Israel donors ([link removed]) threaten to take away money to schools, or actually do it. I think the schools are really between a rock and a hard place, because they don't want to see their endowments threatened. And in recent decades, we've seen that that is the important thing. An institution like Columbia ([link removed]) , as a private university, they're not really beholden to the First Amendment, technically, in the way that other places throughout the country are.
Guardian: Columbia University caves to demands to restore $400m from Trump administration

Guardian (3/21/25 ([link removed]) )

And, first of all, we should say the Trump administration first canceled about $400 million worth of contracts and grants to the school, for what it said was their inability to crack down on antisemitism. I mean, we know that they're referring to the fact that there were pro-Palestine protests on campus. It had very little to do with antisemitism. We know that they're being targeted because they were the first school to erect a Gaza encampment ([link removed]) last spring, which kicked off a wave of protests ([link removed]) throughout the United States, obviously across college campuses. We know why they're being targeted.

But I think the very scary thing here is they withheld ([link removed]) that money, and then they sent Columbia a letter ([link removed]) detailing things that Columbia could do in order for them to revisit that issue, essentially implying that maybe you could get the $400 million if you did the following things. And those things include instituting a mask ban, suspending a number of students who were connected to an occupation of Hamilton Hall on campus last spring. They wanted new protocol in terms of disciplinary actions. They wanted someone to oversee the Middle East Studies Department, among other things.

And almost immediately, Columbia complied ([link removed]) to all these demands. They've said publicly ([link removed]) that they were actually thinking about doing some of this stuff before Trump had asked them. I don't know if that makes it better or worse.
New York: What We Know About the Arrest of Mahmoud Khalil

New York (3/24/25 ([link removed]) )

But that's a huge part of this story. We've seen the universities in this country really cower and just respond to the Trump administration, and do pretty much everything they've asked for in this regard. And shortly before Mahmoud Khalil was detained ([link removed]) on March 8 by plainclothes ICE agents, despite the fact he's a permanent resident with a Green Card, Columbia had actually changed their protocol when it came to its status as a sanctuary campus.

Sanctuary campus is essentially the same as a sanctuary state. They had previously said ([link removed]) that they wouldn't comply or assist ICE if they were on campus. And days before Khalil was detained by ICE agents, they sent an email ([link removed]) out to faculty and students and staff saying, “We've modified these policies. There are some situations where we're going to let ICE on campus without a warrant in certain circumstances.”

So that's a huge part of the story here. I just think that the university's going along and being complicit in this entire ordeal. And we've seen a lot of resistance from faculty and Columbia students, and students across the country, who are really protesting not just these policies that we've seen from Trump and lawmakers, but also the complicity of their schools.

JJ: Gosh, there's so much to say and to respond to. But along with, in particular, the Columbia protest, you see the erasure of Jewish people, of antisemitism being used as a cover to punish and penalize a community that is composed, in large part ([link removed]) , by Jewish people who are protesting the actions of the state of Israel. And Trump, of course, being Trump, just says ([link removed]) , “If Chuck Schumer opposes my policy, he's a Palestinian.” He's in his own world, but we are seeing other institutions essentially say, “Jewish people, you're not Jewish if you are critical of Israel.” That seems like another shadow horror that is happening, and that media are playing a role in.
Democracy Now!: “Never Again for Anyone”: 100 Jewish Activists Arrested at Trump Tower Protesting Mahmoud Khalil Arrest

Democracy Now! (3/14/25 ([link removed]) )

MA: It's a very dark irony. I mean, not only have there been vast protests ([link removed]) by Jewish activists and Jewish students; we saw Trump Tower occupied ([link removed]) in the wake of Khalil's arrest. The fact that the Trump administration is citing antisemitism as their reason for detaining these people, essentially...

I think when Khalil was first detained, there was maybe a belief that the Trump administration was going to rely on some War on Terror policy, or maybe something from Bill Clinton's anti-terrorism law ([link removed]) from 1995. But what we saw is that they're actually relying on an immigration bill ([link removed]) from 1952, which was introduced at the height of the Red Scare.

And that bill was introduced and wielded as a way to target, actually, survivors of the Holocaust, Jewish refugees in the United States, who conservative lawmakers had targeted because they accused them ([link removed]) of being Soviet agents. So the irony here is that we see this law that was used to target Jewish people in the United States now used allegedly to protect them.

And it is another dark irony, I think, that it's coming from this administration of all administrations. As you said, Trump casually will criticize Chuck Schumer by claiming he's not Jewish, calling him a "Palestinian." Trump has repeatedly criticized ([link removed]) Jewish people more broadly for not voting for him, questioning ([link removed]) whether Jewish voters are even Jewish, because he did all this stuff for Israel. Inherent there is the conflation of Zionism and Judaism, which in itself I think is antisemitic.
Politico: Steve Bannon replicates Elon Musk's controversial 'salute' at CPAC

Politico (2/21/25 ([link removed]) )

But it goes without saying that you don't have to travel very far down Trumpland to start seeing examples of people that have been accused of antisemitism in his administration. We're dealing with multiple people, either directly in his administration ([link removed]) or in that broader world ([link removed]) , who have literally given Nazi salutes ([link removed]) in recent weeks.

So there is a real, like I said, irony to this whole situation that's very disturbing, where you have this administration, which has a clearly anti-immigrant, bigoted, history of antisemitism in many areas, and they are detaining people for defending Gaza, for fighting against genocide; and claiming that they're doing it because they're antisemitic, and that antisemitism somehow threatens American foreign policy interests. So we're really in a dark, upside-down time, I think, and it's very terrifying.

JJ: Looking at what we know about media, we know that years from now, they will tell us, “Remember when we were all out in the streets protesting Israeli genocide in Gaza.” We know that they will say that “Martin Luther King would've said....” The powers that be, including in corporate news media, will co-opt the actions of today. Columbia University will have a photo montage ([link removed]) about the protesters, and how they allowed protests to happen.

I mean, we know how history can be rewritten in real time by news media. It's so frustrating to look at it today, and know the way that these folks are going to try to claim ownership of protest later.

That's not a question, it's just a rant. We can see it. We can see the way that they will talk about, “Oh, the Civil Rights Movement. That was good protest. This is bad protest,” when in real time, they hated ([link removed]) the Civil Rights Movement.
AP: Turkish student at Tufts University detained, video shows masked people handcuffing her

AP (3/26/25 ([link removed]) )

MA: It's very true. And these images and videos people probably have seen yesterday, a tremendously disturbing video ([link removed]) coming out of Somerville, Massachusetts. Rumeysa Ozturk ([link removed]) , who's a 30-year-old Turkish national and doctoral student at Tufts, was detained, much like Khalil, snatched up on the street by undercover ICE agents wearing masks, where the police took her phone away from her. And it's not hyperbole to say these people are being disappeared in broad daylight.

And to your point, I think people love to look back on history and convince themselves they would've been on the right side. They like to watch movies about historical time periods, and think that they would've been siding with the right side. But I think the way that people are reacting to this now, if they are supporting it or ignoring it, I think it's pretty clear what side of history they would've been on if they had lived through something like the Holocaust, or like the Civil Rights Movement.

And also to your point, there is no kind of accountability for the media whatsoever, where—this is just an aside—but in the last couple of days we've seen this big controversy over the Signal chat, obviously, where the bombing of Yemen was revealed to a reporter ([link removed]) .
FAIR: Conspiracies Pushed by Atlantic’s Editor Excluded From Atlantic’s Denunciation of Conspiracy Theories

FAIR.org (8/10/17 ([link removed]) )

That reporter is Jeffrey Goldberg, a former IDF soldier who has contacts throughout prominent politicians in the United States. But he's also somebody who helped push a fabricated story ([link removed]) about Iraq's alleged connection to Al Qaeda, which, over 20 years ago, helped pave the way for the Iraq War. And the media is just filled with reporters like that, who have faced no accountability, or have actually moved up in their careers, and have more power now than they did 20, 23 years ago.

So it just speaks to your point, what will things look like a couple of decades from now? I think all the people who are maybe ignoring this or cheering it on, or not responding to it in any serious way, will probably not have to face any type of consequences. And to your point, they'll also be controlling the narrative in terms of how this period gets remembered.

JJ: You can always fail upward in news media.

I'll just ask you, finally, for any thoughts about “Power & Pushback,” what you hope folks will take from it, what you hope to uplift, any final thoughts on this intervention that you're spearheading?
Mondoweiss: Trump administration says it has revoked at least 300 visas for Palestine advocacy

Mondoweiss (4/1/25 ([link removed]) )

MA: I would encourage people, if they're interested in this subject, to go on our site where they can subscribe ([link removed]) to “Power & Pushback.” We're really hoping, beyond this being a way to highlight the fights that I'm talking about, that it also opens up a dialogue, that people feel if they're working in their community in terms of something, or they see something where free speech is being stifled, that they can reach out to us, and we can potentially shine a light on it and cover it.

Sometimes this stuff doesn't happen where it's a lot of news cameras. Sometimes it's not a thousand people. Sometimes it's just as simple as somebody being told they can't wear a certain pin to work, or their website faces some sort of crackdown, or their student group at a small college is suddenly suspended. So we really are focused on covering this big-picture Trump stuff, and this big-picture higher education stuff. But we really hope that it also becomes a forum for these smaller-scale battles, because I think these are really going to add up.

And polling ([link removed]) shows us that things have really shifted, Israel's brand has really diminished over the past decade, particularly among progressives and Democratic voters, even if party leaders and Democratic lawmakers haven't caught up to that. So I think, in some capacity, the momentum is on the side of the people who are protesting on behalf of Palestine, even though when you look at the media, it seems to be the opposite.

I think that a lot of these draconian measures are obviously a response to those successes. We've seen this crackdown ([link removed]) on the BDS movement. We've seen this push to adopt the IHRA definition ([link removed]) of antisemitism, which equates some criticism of Israel with antisemitism.

So I really think, insofar as Trump represents a backlash politics, and he does in many capacities, it's also a backlash to the advances the Palestine movement in the United States has made over the last few years.

So like I said, in addition to covering the repression and suppression, we really want it to be a place that takes a close look at that progress, and looks at this in a wider way, where people can turn and you can talk to us about that.

So that's what we're hoping. I encourage people to check out our site where they can read about this stuff pretty consistently, but also sign up for our newsletter so they can get that information.

JJ: We've been speaking with Michael Arria. He is US correspondent at Mondoweiss—that's Mondoweiss.net ([link removed]) —and author of their new feature “Power and Pushback.” Michael Arria, thank you so much for joining us this week on CounterSpin.

MA: Thank you so much for having me.
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