The following is a transcript of a video interview between Rep. Ritchie Torres and RDI CEO Uriel Epshtein. The transcript has been edited slightly for clarity.
Uriel Epshtein: You've been one of the single most outspoken members of Congress talking about the challenges related to antisemitism and the historical struggles that we've seen over the course of centuries. And speaking of controversial subjects, you've called yourself a “liberal Zionist.” What does that term mean to you?
Ritchie Torres: Well, the definition of Zionism is much simpler than is commonly thought. After World War I especially, there was a global consensus, or the beginning of a global consensus, that all peoples have a right to self-determination. And Zionism, at its core, is simply Jewish self-determination. It's the right of the Jewish people to exercise self-determination in their ancestral homeland, the Land of Israel. And what I have often found is that there is a double standard against Zionism; that the international community seems to believe that all peoples have a right to self-determination except the Jewish people. The United Nations embraces every form of nationalism except Jewish nationalism, which it famously denounced as a form of racism. And so the double standard against Zionism is based on misconception and disinformation. And then liberal Zionism is simply the proposition that Israel should be both a democratic and a Jewish state, that it should be a sanctuary for the Jewish people, but it also should be a democratic state in which Israelis of all backgrounds—Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs—have equal rights.
Uriel Epshtein: Does it say anything about a potential Palestinian state?
Ritchie Torres: Well, there's nothing inherent in liberal Zionism that forecloses the possibility of a Palestinian state. But for me, liberal Zionism lies in the center between two extremes. There's the anti-Zionism of the far-left, which calls for the creation of a Palestinian state to the exclusion of a Jewish state. And then there's the religious Zionism of the far-right, which calls for the creation of a Greater Israel to the exclusion of a Palestinian state. And liberal Zionism represents a rejection of both.
Uriel Epshtein: How did you get so passionate about this issue?
Ritchie Torres: I've been traveling to Israel for about 10 years. For most of my life, I had no passion for or knowledge of the subject. I grew up in a community that was almost exclusively Latino and African-American. So I had no engagement with the Jewish community and no knowledge of Judaism or Zionism. When I became a member of the New York City Council in 2014, I was invited by the New York Jewish Community Relations Council to go on a delegation to Israel. It was the first time I had an opportunity to travel abroad. I experienced both the majesty and the complexity of Israel firsthand when I went to the Old City [of Jerusalem] and Yad Vashem [Holocaust memorial] and Masada and the Gaza Envelope. It was one of the most formative and transformative experiences of my life. I've been traveling to Israel ever since then for about 10 years.
Uriel Epshtein: Do you still think a two-state solution is viable?
Ritchie Torres: Look, a two-state solution might be unachievable in the short run because of the Second Intifada and October 7, but the status quo is unsustainable in the long run. And I never lose faith in the possibility of peace. History tells us that even the oldest hatreds can be overcome and that peace is possible. In the early twentieth century, the greatest enemies of democracy were Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. And in the twenty-first century, some of the greatest defenders of democracy are Japan and Germany.
During the first half of its existence, Israel was in an endless state of war with the Arab world, particularly Egypt. There was a major Israeli-Arab war in every decade, 1947, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, the First Lebanon War. And after what felt like a seemingly endless cycle of warfare, Egypt and Israel ultimately overcame their hatreds and brokered a peace that has held for half a century. So history tells us that peace is possible.
Uriel Epshtein: If I were an anti-Zionist and I was sitting here across from you, what would you want to say?
Ritchie Torres: We should define the terms first. There's a difference between a non-Zionist or an a-Zionist and an anti-Zionist. If you're a non-Zionist or an a-Zionist, you're simply apathetic or indifferent to Israel as a Jewish state. And there's nothing antisemitic about apathy or indifference. Not everyone has to be a Zionist. Not everyone has to care about the State of Israel. But if you're an anti-Zionist, it means that you are actively committed to the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. And if you are advocating for the destruction of the world's largest Jewish community, a community that houses half of the world's Jewish population, in my view, that is inherently antisemitic.
I represent a heavily Dominican constituency in the Bronx. If I said to my constituents, I have no issues with Dominicans, but I'm in favor of the destruction of the Dominican Republic, then my constituents would, first, vote me out of office, and then would rightly view my attack on the Dominican nation as an attack on the Dominican people.
Uriel Epshtein: How do you view America's role in this conflict? If you were advising the president, what might you tell them to do?
Ritchie Torres: The United States is the most powerful country on Earth. We are the singular superpower of the world, but there are limits to what we can do. And we have to be careful not to mistake our superpower status for divinity. It is unrealistic to expect the United States to effectively create a two-state solution from the ivory tower of the White House or the United States Congress. American leadership is a necessary but insufficient condition for a durable Israeli-Palestinian peace. Peace is going to require the right American leadership, the right Israeli leadership, and the right Palestinian leadership. And at the moment, we're lacking a number of those conditions.
Uriel Epshtein: And if America were to start demonstrating that leadership—understanding its own limitations, understanding its lack of divinity—how might it do so?
Ritchie Torres: Well, the issue is not a lack of leadership from the United States. Look, I believe that one of the greatest stumbling blocks to peace has been the violent extremism in the Palestinian national movement. First with the Second Intifada, and then October 7. Those expressions of extremism have all but derailed the peace process. In order for peace to succeed, there has to be a recognition of Israel's right to exist, and there has to be a renunciation of violent extremism. Without those conditions, peace is going to remain out of reach.
Uriel Epshtein: And on the flip side, do you think there's something different that Israel could be doing?
Ritchie Torres: I think Israel is threatened not only by the anti-Zionism of the American far-left, but it is threatened by the ultra-Zionism of the Israeli far-right, by the likes of [Jewish Power party leader] Itamar Ben Gvir and [Finance Minister] Bezalel Smotrich. I think Israel has to police its own extremes because these two men are dangerous demagogues who are doing an irreparable disservice to their own country.
Uriel Epshtein: One of the key sticking points in any sort of two-state negotiation is the status of Palestinian refugees from the 1948 Israeli War of Independence, which the Palestinians would call the Naqba [Arabic for “catastrophe”]. There is a UN agency, UNRWA [United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees], not without its own fairly significant number of controversies, whose sole purpose is working with these Palestinian refugees, and this agency argues that there are 5.6 million of these refugees worldwide. What is your sense of how this part of the conflict might be addressed?
Ritchie Torres: I find it strange that there is one UN refugee agency for everyone else, and then a separate one—UNRWA—simply for the Palestinians. And there's one definition of refugee for everyone else. And then a separate definition for the Palestinians. It seems to me there should be one agency and one definition that applies to everyone. We should end the bifurcation of the refugee-industrial complex. So that would be a start. But I certainly feel there should be organizations that provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinians, indeed, who are genuinely suffering, who are genuinely in distress. But there is a legitimate concern about UNRWA, that what it's promoting is not humanitarianism but hate. There has been clear evidence that UNRWA classrooms are indoctrinating young students with a hatred for Jews and for Israelis. You might recall during one of the videos showing the barbarities of October 7, there was a Hamas terrorist who picked up the phone and called his parents and boasted that he had murdered 10 Jews. I forget the exact number. And that kind of indoctrination has taken hold in UNRWA classrooms. So you can either have hate or you can have peace, but you can’t have both.
Uriel Epshtein: So to that end, what do you think effective Palestinian self-governance can look like?
Ritchie Torres: I think effective Palestinian self-governance means forging peace with Israel, right? Recognizing Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, renouncing violent extremism, and providing the Palestinian people with the decent life that they deserve, that all people deserve. I would love for Israeli-Arab peace to be part of the broader Abrahamic unity that is unfolding in the Middle East.
Uriel Epshtein: What role do you think disinformation is currently playing in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how might you think about trying to facilitate more honest conversations about what's quickly becoming one of the single most controversial issues that Americans are talking about?
Ritchie Torres: There are far too many people who are forming opinions on complicated issues like Israel based on hashtags on Twitter or videos on TikTok. And we are seeing social media systematically miseducate the next generation about issues like Israel. What I tell people is, before you rush to judge, you should go to Israel and experience both the majesty and the complexity of what Israel has to offer. And speak to both Israelis and Palestinians, speak to both Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews. Go to Yad Vashem and Masada and Sderot. See the bus stops doubling as bomb shelters. And I guarantee you that you will come to adopt a view of Israel that is far more nuanced than the cartoonish portrayal that percolates on social media platforms and on college campuses. Firsthand experience is the best antidote to disinformation.
Uriel Epshtein: Realistically, I doubt that most American students are going to be making their way to Israel or the West Bank and certainly not to Gaza. What about for those people? What would you recommend for them?
Ritchie Torres: Look, I think beyond the issue of Israel, we have to teach Americans and teach the next generation to be critical consumers of information and to be thoughtfully critical and skeptical about the information that's flowing on social media platforms like TikTok and Twitter. The greatest virtue of social media is that it represents the democratization of information. And the greatest vice of social media is that it represents the democratization of information, which often means no quality control. And so it's more important than ever that we become critical thinkers rather than uncritical followers of disinformation on social media platforms.
Uriel Epshtein: I always want to close on a positive note. So with all the insanity, with all the negativity, with all the violence in the world today, Ritchie, what gives you hope?
Ritchie Torres: Look, I'm a member of the greatest legislature in the greatest country on Earth. I never thought a kid from the Bronx who grew up in poverty would become a member of the world's most powerful legislature.
About 15 years ago, I was at the lowest point in my life. I had dropped out of college. I found myself abusing substances, struggling with depression. I even attempted suicide and underwent hospitalization. I felt as if the world around me had collapsed, and I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would have an opportunity to rebuild my life and then become a member of the New York City Council, the youngest elected official in America's largest city, and then eventually become a member of the United States Congress. I feel like only in America is a story like mine possible.
Uriel Epshtein: Well, I can't think of a better note to close on than that. So Richie, thank you so much for joining us.
Click here to watch the whole interview.
This video was recorded in October 2024.
