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'This Is a Choice Companies Are Making to Raise Fees' Janine Jackson ([link removed])


Janine Jackson interviewed the National Employment Law Project's Sally Dworak-Fisher about delivery workers for the April 26, 2024, episode ([link removed]) of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript.

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Janine Jackson: Less than four months after it came into effect, Seattle is looking to "adjust"—as it's being described—the app-based worker minimum-payment ordinance calling on companies like Uber and DoorDash to improve labor conditions for employees.

Seattle City Council President Sara Nelson described the ordinance's impact on the local economy as “catastrophic.” The Seattle Times reports ([link removed]) that the “whiplash reversal comes as both drivers and businesses complained about the added cost of delivery, largely in the form of service charges added by the companies in the wake of the new law"—"in the wake of” being the load-bearing language here.
Common Dreams: DoorDash and Uber Using Customers as Pawns to Punish Workers—Don’t Fall for It

Common Dreams (3/28/24 ([link removed]) )

The story of a recent piece by our next guest is in its headline ([link removed] mere two months after,consumer demand and available work.) : “DoorDash and Uber Using Customers as Pawns to Punish Workers—Don't Fall for It.” So here to help us break down what's going on is Sally Dworak-Fisher, a senior staff attorney at the National Employment Law Project ([link removed]) . She joins us now by phone from Baltimore City. Welcome to CounterSpin, Sally Dworak-Fisher.

Sally Dworak-Fisher: Thank you so much for having me.

JJ: Though more and more people are taking on gig work—for reasons largely to do with the conditions of non-gig work—I think it's still safe to say that more mainstream news media consumers use app-based delivery systems than work for them. And reporters know what they're doing when they explain this story by saying ([link removed] like Doordash have implemented,a hit to sales revenue.) , for instance, “Companies like DoorDash have implemented regulatory fees in response to the new law, causing the cost of orders to go up.” What's being skipped over in that formulation, or that explanation, of what's happening here, that there was a new law and now costs have gone up? What's missing there?

SD: Sure. Well, it's not a surprise that companies might choose to pass on some percentage of new costs to consumers, but they're by no means required to, and compliance with bedrock pay standards, or any workplace law or social safety net, is part of running a business. If you need to charge a certain amount so you can pay your employee a minimum wage, you don't normally issue a receipt that says, this is due to the minimum wage law. The practice of specifically pointing the finger at some new law seems really designed to make customers angry at the law, and pit them against the workers. It's a business choice, it's not a requirement.

And businesses could choose to, for instance, not pass on the entire cost of the law, or not pass on any of it, if they can afford to do that within their profit margin. So this particular situation, where customers are getting receipts that, in effect, blame the law, seems like a play to pit workers and consumers against one another.

JJ: Absolutely. In your piece that I saw in Common Dreams, you note that charging new service fees is an effort to “tank consumer demand and available work.” What are you getting at there? Why would a company want to draw down consumer demand, and then, more specifically, why would they want to lessen available work?

SD: My point there was just that, in so doing, they can also again create an outcry, a backlash, with workers themselves also saying, “Hey, the law isn't working as intended. We need to change it.” But, really, it's a manufactured crisis, and it's not the law that's to blame there. It's really the policy of the business that's to blame.

JJ: And we don't see media, at least that I've seen, digging into that kind of elision, that kind of skip.
Seattle Council May Make U-Turn on Delivery Drivers' Pay as Fees Increase

Seattle Times (4/26/24 ([link removed]) )

SD: Another interesting thing to note would be, so they add a $5 fee that's purportedly because of the new legal requirements. But it'll be interesting to know how much of that fee from all those people is really going through the compliance, versus how much is going to profit. And their data is not easily shared.

JJ: And I wanted to ask you about that data. Companies are saying these new service charges are a necessary counterbalance to increased labor costs. Though according to, at least, the Seattle Times, they have declined ([link removed]) to release internal data. So we're being asked to trust the very companies that fought tooth and nail against this ordinance, against paying workers more. We're just supposed to trust their explanation of what the impact of that ordinance has been. That is, as you say, an information deficit there.

SD: Yes, and I think that they closely guard their information, and don't turn it over to policymakers. It's sort of shadow-boxing, in a way, because they have all the information. So I would hope that policymakers would make them show their work, in effect.

JJ: Or at least make a point of the fact that they're not; that they're making assertions based on something that they're not proving or illustrating. We can call that out.

SD: And that was part of our point, is that this law has only gone into effect two months ago. Just be cognizant of the fact that this is a choice that the companies are making to raise these service fees. And before you go about rushing to judgment on anything, demand the data, and see what's going on.
CounterSpin: ‘The Gig Economy Is Really Just Pushing People Into Precarious Work’

CounterSpin (4/3/20 ([link removed]) )

JJ: When I spoke ([link removed]) with Bama Athreya, who hosts the podcast the Gig, she was saying that there's a glaring need for a bridge between labor rights advocates and digital rights advocates. Because these companies, they're not making toasters. Their business model is crucial here, and part of that involves, in fact, data, and that, beyond our regular understanding of workers' rights, there needs to be a bigger-picture understanding of this new way of doing business.

SD: That dovetails with something that we talk about frequently here, which is the algorithmic control and the gamification of the work. These corporations are really well-versed in touting flexibility, but the day-to-day job of an app-based worker is highly mediated, monitored, controlled by algorithms that detail how much they'll be paid, when they'll be paid, when they can work. There's a whole lot of algorithms and tech that come into play here. But I do just want to say, it doesn't make them special. These are just new ways of misclassifying workers as independent contractors.

JJ: It's just a new shine on an old practice.

Another thing that Bama Athreya pointed out was that it's often presented to us as, “Well, I guess you're going to have to pay $26 for a cup of coffee, because the workers want to get paid more.” And that's the pitting workers versus consumers angle that a lot of elite media take.
Intercept: Uber CEO Admits Company Can Afford Labor Protections for Drivers

Intercept (1/7/22 ([link removed]) )

But also, if we look at other countries, companies like Uber say, “Well golly, if you make us improve our labor practices, I guess we'll have to”—and then they kick rocks and look sad—“I guess we'll just have to go out of business.” And then a government says, “Well, yeah, OK, but you still have to follow the law.” And then they say, “Oh, all right, we'll just follow it.” They can do it.

SD: And I think they've admitted that. I believe that the Uber CEO, after California passed AB 5, which is a law regarding who's an employee and who's an independent contractor in that state, Uber, I'm pretty sure, was on record saying ([link removed]) , “Well, we can comply with any law.”

And, honestly, I think that really gets into, what do we as a society want in terms of our policies? Do we want just any business? Don't we have minimum wage laws for a reason? If you can't make it work while still paying a living wage, then consumers aren't in the business of subsidizing that. I'm sorry, but not every business is entitled to run on the lowest wage possible.

JJ: And I wish a lot of the folks were not saying, out of the same mouth, that capitalism is this wonderful thing where if you build a better mousetrap, then you succeed, and if you don't, well, you don't. And that's why they have to be rewarded, because of the risk they take. When then, at the same time, we're saying, oh, but if you want to fall afoul of certain basic human rights laws, we'll subsidize that, and make sure you get to exist anyway. It's a confusing picture.

SD: I mean, should we bring back child labor?

JJ: Yeah. Hmm. You thought that would be a less interesting question than it turns out that it is.

Let me just ask you, finally, what should we be looking for to happen from public advocates, which we would hope elected officials would be public advocates, and also reporters we would hope would be public advocates. What should they be calling for, and what should they notice if it doesn't happen? What's the right move right now?
Sally Dworak-Fisher

Sally Dworak-Fisher: "Uber and Lyft, in particular, buy, bully and bamboozle their way into getting legislatures to enact the policies that they favor."

SD: I think whatever can be done to support the movement. There's movements across states of app-based workers demanding accountability, and really trying to shine a light on what's really going on here. I think the more reporting on that, and exposing—you know, every worker should have flexibility and a good job, but the flexibility that's offered app-based workers is not necessarily the flexibility that a regular reader might assume.

In 2018, NELP issued a report with another organization, called Uber State Interference ([link removed]) , and we really identified these ways that Uber and Lyft, in particular, buy, bully and bamboozle their way into getting legislatures to enact the policies that they favor. And now, coming out of the pandemic, as workers are successfully organizing again, like they've been doing in Seattle and New York City and Minneapolis, the companies are orchestrating a backlash. So understanding the context of what's going on, and exposing it, would go a long way in solidarity with the workers.

JJ: We've been speaking with Sally Dworak-Fisher from the National Employment Law Project; they're online at NELP.org ([link removed]) . And her piece, “DoorDash and Uber Using Customers as Pawns to Punish Workers—Don't Fall for It,” can be found at CommonDreams.org ([link removed]) . Thank you so much, Sally Dworak-Fisher, for speaking with us this week on CounterSpin.

SD: A pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.


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