Shortly after I moved to Jerusalem in 2001, there was a song always playing on the radio about—what else? the “matzav,” the Hebrew shorthand for Israel’s security and political situation. Since my command of the language was then far from fluent, I could only make out the refrain: “Everyone talks about peace/But no one talks about justice/One person’s heaven is another person’s hell/how many fingers on the trigger?” I recall asking an Israeli friend to solve what for me was a mystery: Was this a right-wing song, or was it criticism from the left? He got back to me a week later, after he’d listened all the way through. “It’s definitely a left-wing song,” he reported. And then: “But I can see how right-wingers might like the words.”

I’ve often thought this song reveals a lot about Israeli discourse on the Palestinian conflict. For starters, it hints at how, when confronted with the same events, each side will inevitably reach different conclusions and see different narratives confirmed. But it also, I believe, exemplifies one of the discourse’s most salient features: Namely, the impulse toward self-reflection and deep concern with morality.
 

As listeners of EconTalk since October 7^th will know, that impulse can certainly make for fascinating conversation. What it doesn’t lend itself to is satisfying clarity. Indeed, what ultimately emerges from the seven recent episodes about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not so much a clear picture of what preceded Hamas’ attack than it is a panoply of insights, a collage of complexity. The only thing, in fact, on which all these guests might agree is that for every Israeli argument or historical reading, there exists an equal and opposite Palestinian story.

That, and the belief that Israel’s future depends on understanding that story’s meaning.

For Israeli democracy researcher Dahlia Scheindlin, for example, answering the question, “What do Palestinians really want?” requires placing Palestinian survey data in a wider and more nuanced context. So, too, does journalist and podcaster Robert Wright, in his civilized debate with Russ Roberts about Israel’s war in Gaza, look to the daily realities of Palestinian life in Gaza and the West Bank when trying to make sense of October 7th. To both of them, the answers lie largely in the various ways that Israel stifles rather than supports their national aspirations.

According to author and journalist Matti Friedman, if those aspirations are poorly understood in the West, it’s because they’re rarely presented accurately. In a talk about the media’s obsession with and biased coverage of Israel, he argues that the news reveals less about what happened than it does about those writing the news. Historian Hillel Cohen would agree on the incompatibility of open-minded scholarship and tribal identity: In discussing what he calls “year zero” of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, he shows how both sides use the events of 1929 in British Mandate Palestine to support their national narratives. And author Yossi Klein Halevi, whose 2018 book attempted to tell both people’s story of ending up in the land of Israel, shares his conclusion that while forgoing part of one’s narrative is the only means to real coexistence, it is also the hardest thing for any nation to do.

Origin stories are at the heart of the Haviv Rettig Gur episode, which traces the roots of European Jew hatred to 1881 and the lessons a Russian czar learned from his predecessor’s assassination. He also takes us back to Algeria of 1962, when the defeat of the French gave rise to the logic behind the Palestinian Liberation Organization: The Jews, they believe, will leave Israel when the cost of staying becomes too high. Yet as Rettig Gur makes clear when describing the motivation for Zionism, that strategy—even after October 7^th—is inherently doomed to failure.

Finally, commentator and author Daniel Gordis discusses the shifts in Israeli public opinion after October 7^th, which he describes as a qualitatively different chapter of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He explains why such a broad swath of Israelis are united around their response, and shares both his optimism and pessimism about what that response can really achieve.

Which brings me again to that old Israeli pop song, and to yet another way it relates to Israeli political discourse. In the lyrics themselves, the slow pacing, and the intimacy of the hand drums, you can hear both the hope and despair that often exist here side by side, one never far from the other, both integral parts of Israeli life. In the months since October 7^th, it would be easy to assume that most Israelis are more despairing than hopeful of what the future holds. But as hit song after hit song produced since that day has shown, even amidst their grief and fear and rage, Israelis feel an unstoppable desire to create, uplift, and keep on. It’s a feeling best expressed in the war’s so-called “anthem” by popular singer Eyal Golan—“Am Yisrael Chai,” the people of Israel lives.

And as both national narrative and aspiration, I think it says it all.

Marla Braverman, editor at EconTalk

Mining the Conversation

A selection of past EconTalk episodes that relate to health, medicine, and the practical and philosophical problems they raise:

Michael Oren on the Changing U.S.-Israel Alliance. The celebrated historian and former Israeli ambassador to the United States speaks about America’s seemingly erratic approach toward the region in the wake of October 7^th and its evolving relationship with Israel. He also discusses the reality of the battlefield in Gaza in which the IDF is forced to operate, the various possibilities for the day after, and why history makes him an optimist.

Matti Friedman on Leonard Cohen and the Yom Kippur War. In October 1973, at the news of the outbreak of war, Leonard Cohen left his family in Greece and boarded a flight to Tel Aviv. Absent a plan and even a guitar, Cohen nonetheless wound up at the front, serenading Israeli soldiers with his most haunting melodies. As journalist and author Matti Friedman writes in his book Who By Fire, not only a state but also songwriter were forged in that crucible of war.

Daniel Gordis on Israel and “Impossible Takes Longer.” On the occasion of Israel’s 75^th birthday, commentator and author Daniel Gordis wonders, has it fulfilled the promise of its founders? His answer, not surprisingly, is both yes and no. Listen for a wide-ranging discussion about the history of Zionism, the plight of the Palestinians, the Jewishness of the Jewish state, and the judicial-reform protests that nearly tore apart a nation before October 7^th brought it together again.

Russ Roberts on Israel and Life as an Immigrant. In a crossover special, economist and blogger Tyler Cowen interviews Russ Roberts about his new life in Israel as president of Shalem College. They discuss why there are so few new universities in Israel; the challenge of managing teams in the face of linguistic and cultural barriers; whether Israeli society could adapt to the loss of universal military service; what American Jews don’t understand about life in Israel; and, most important of all: Why Israeli TV is so good.

Conversation Starters

An eclectic selection of books, films, and podcasts for enhancing your own conversations on the topic.

Listening to the Sirens, a Substack by Russ Roberts, who chronicles his thoughts and experiences as a new immigrant to Israel in the aftermath of October 7^th.

“Intention,” a short story by Etgar Keret. In the weeks after October 7^th, Keret said that he couldn’t write because “the things I’m feeling—whether sorrow or fury or loneliness—don’t lead anywhere.” Two months later, they led to this tragicomic portrait of a religious Jew’s struggle to preserve his faith after the Hamas attack.

“October,” a poem by Adi Keissar. Poems can give voice to the emotions in a way that news items and images can’t. It’s no wonder, then, that “October,” which was first published in Hebrew just two weeks after the October 7^th attack, went viral on social media and has been translated into numerous languages.

A war playlist? Indeed: More than anything else, it’s music that helps Israelis get through the war. While the lyrics of all these songs are in Hebrew, the sentiments behind them—from grief to hope to determination—need no translation, and offer excellent insight into a country’s state of mind.

Have the last word.