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'Intentional Storytelling Is a Way We Can Fight for a Better World' Janine Jackson ([link removed])


Janine Jackson interviewed Rising Up's Sonali Kolhatkar about the power of narrative for the June 16, 2023, episode ([link removed]) of CounterSpin. This is a lightly edited transcript.

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Janine Jackson: Most of us have a memory about a time someone judged us based on things they heard about people "like us." They couldn't, if only for a moment, see us as an individual, because that view was clouded by hundreds of tales they'd heard about people with our skin color, or clothing, or physical ability.
Rising Up: The Power of Narrative in Pursuing Racial Justice

(City Lights, 2023)

And most of us can also recognize that our vision of people we don't know has been shaped by stories we've been told. It's not a giant leap to see how that can affect our political choices and possibilities.

Narrative is a tricky and significant thing, and the subject of a lot of important new work, including that of our guest today.

Sonali Kolhatkar is the host and executive producer of the daily radio and TV program Rising Up With Sonali ([link removed]) , and the racial justice and civil liberties editor at Yes! Magazine ([link removed]) . Her new book, Rising Up: ([link removed]) The Power of Narrative in Pursuing Racial Justice, will be published this month by City Lights, and she joins us now by phone. Welcome back to CounterSpin, Sonali Kolhatkar.

Sonali Kolhatkar: It's such an honor to be with you, Janine. Thank you for having me.

JJ: It's my pleasure. I've been hearing about the importance of narrative in social justice spaces for a few years now, and I want to ask you to clarify, because it sounds "soft"; it sounds like meta-phenomena. You can think, well, let's change facts on the ground, and then we'll talk about what stories we tell about them.

So I want to ask you to just respond, how do we define narrative, and how do you situate that within what else needs to happen?

SK: Those are great questions, and it is a new front in organizing, and I'm really glad it is, because as a journalist for a few decades now, I have seen the power of how narrative shifts culture, and how culture then shifts policy.

We'd like to think, especially on the left, that if there is a wrong that needs to be righted, that all we have to do is make the case to the right people ardently enough, and it'll happen. But unfortunately, it doesn't happen that way. And we find ourselves, especially today, at a time when white supremacy is so resurgent, and so it really was important for me to explore this idea of how our narratives are shaped.
Sonali Kolhatkar (photo: Amanda McIntosh)

Sonali Kolhatkar: "I have seen the power of how narrative shifts culture, and how culture then shifts policy." (photo: Amanda McIntosh)

And it's kind of a simple thing, because it's all around us. As human beings, it is extremely natural for us to have an idea of how our world works based on all of the things that we have been exposed to from childhood in storytelling, whether it's through mass media, the TV shows we watch and the movies that we watch; whether it's in the communities we live in, and so the people we interact with; classes we took in school, or the college courses we took—all of that shapes our view of the world.

And so narrative, this idea that intentional storytelling, which is how I define it, shapes our worldview, is a very important way in which we can fight for a better world.

And for journalists like me, that is where I am most comfortable, because I engage in narrative work every single day.

The mainstream media like to think that there's this myth of objectivity ([link removed]) , but what they're doing is, they're bringing in the narratives that they have internalized to every story that they write, instead of identifying the narrative, or even trying to change the narrative.

So we have had racist narratives, narratives promoting racist stereotypes, for so many years. In my book, I look through the history of Hollywood, I look at the right-wing shock jocks of the kind that FAIR has been analyzing for years, and how they perpetuated racist narratives, and kept the culture of the United States, a nation built on white supremacy, kept that ideology alive in the hearts of far too many Americans.

But our nation is changing demographically, and in order to fulfill the promise of democracy, people of color need to be seen as full human beings. And that's where narrative work to upend racist narratives, and replace them with racial justice narratives, comes in.

So a lot of organizations are doing that work. A lot of storytellers are now doing that work.

I look at how independent media has offered a counterpoint to mainstream media for years, and changed narratives.

I look at how Hollywood is being infiltrated by new progressive, independent filmmakers of color, who are finally getting the space, albeit still not commensurate with population, to tell their own stories, and to tell the stories of people of color, so that we are seen as full, complex human beings.

I delve into critical race theory and college education, and upending narratives through storytelling in print, and even social media.

And finally, face-to-face conversations, how we can really come together as a country. And I don't want to sound too idealistic. As someone who has been looking at social justice issues for many years, in fact, it's been hard to not be too cynical.

But in doing the research and writing this book, I found myself really feeling more hopeful, because what's happening is as the demographic shifts are happening in this country, people of color are finally starting to feel less marginalized by speaking up, speaking out and rising up—take a look at the title of the book!

So that's what I think about as narrative, and I really hope your listeners, and Americans all around us, start to see narrative work as important work that is a critical part of social justice work.

JJ: It's really just naming something that's happening all the time. I think that it's undeniable, how language and how framing can change opinions.

Years ago, when I was talking about affirmative action, there was research ([link removed]) saying that when you talk to people about "affirmative action," they're for it. If you talk to people about "preferential treatment," they're against it.

On a very basic level, it's about the words we use. It's about the language we use to frame and set up situations that we're talking about.

So if we can bring it up to the present day, when you talk to people—and you explore this in the book—about "diversity," that's one thing; when you talk about "equity"... It's about what pictures those words call up in people's brains, and the idea that that is actually important and worth paying attention to.

SK: Yeah, I mean, context matters so much, right?

Like, say, take the simple slogan "Black Lives Matter." For the independent media, when we covered this movement when it first started 10 years ago, it was not something that our audiences were jarred by, because our audiences had already been conditioned to understand that Black lives have not mattered in American history. But to an audience that has been exposed only to Fox News, or, for that matter, even just CNN, "Black Lives Matter," if they really didn't want to accept that the country is white supremacist, sounded like Black folks asking for preferential treatment, as if that term meant Black lives matter more than everyone else's.

So context matters, history matters, and that's where the independent media comes in.
Race Forward: Why We Should Drop The I-Word

YouTube (10/28/15 ([link removed]) )

And words matter. So there was a campaign ([link removed]) by ColorLines magazine, which I write about in the book, to pressure media outlets to stop using the word "illegal” when referring to undocumented immigrants.

In fact, so many outlets were, and some still do, refer to undocumented people as "illegals," not even "illegal people," but "illegals," right, which is a dehumanizing term. And when you can dehumanize people, then it justifies treating them as second-class citizens, treating them as less than human.

And so changing that language, which at that time was not seen as a really important part of work, but that ColorLines pushed for, did help to change the narrative on seeing undocumented immigrants as people, as human beings.

And Associated Press changed their language, and you started to see that culture shifting. It doesn't mean that we've won rights for undocumented folks, but it means that we are on our way to doing so, and we have to keep pushing.

So yeah, words matter, and I'm really glad you brought that up: the "I-word," as it’s been called, right?

And there's so many other words, you can look around, and one of the things I want to do with my book is help readers and listeners identify narrative around them.

When you are watching a movie, a Hollywood film, to be able to look at it with a critical mind and say, that's a white supremacist narrative, that's a white savior complex, a common trope. Wow, here's a movie where the men have all the speaking parts, and women are props, or people of color are props.

And it's telling the stories of white folks from white perspectives, because the writers are white, the executive producers are white, and people of color, women, who are marginalized in the stories are marginalized then in our culture as well. So we want people to be able to see those things more clearly for themselves, and then commit to changing them.

JJ: And to recognize that, as much as you might think words are words and reality is reality, there is a way that changing the conversation can actually change the facts on the ground.

It's a dialectic, of course, but there is a back and forth between—if you're comfortable calling people "illegals," you're going to have a certain kind of political conversation.

And just to remove that from the conversation does actually have a material effect. I think that's important.
Independent: Copaganda: Why film and TV portrayals of the police are under fire

Independent (7/9/20 ([link removed]) )

SK: Absolutely. Content shapes culture and culture shapes content. They work hand in hand.

And one of the other things that I point out in my book, even though we may not think of it as a narrative around race, I have a whole chapter on it, because I feel so strongly about it. It's called copaganda ([link removed]) .

It's not a phrase that I came up with, but it's a phrase that racial justice activists have used for a long time, and that is: mass media narratives that portray police as the good guys. It's something that we see in Hollywood all around us: The police are the good guys. When they do bad things, they are the exception rather than the rule.

And that's the kind of pervasive, insidious cultural bedrock that then lays the foundations for pouring one-fourth to one-third of city budgets into police budgets.

When people say "defund the police," what they really mean is take money out of police budgets and put them into the things that actually matter. And Hollywood is a huge obstacle to the defund movement, because Hollywood continually portrays police as noble, as do-gooders. And so it sounds jarring, to those who buy into that narrative, to hear "defund the police." And if we start to change the culture on it, we can start to change the policy on the ground.

JJ: One of the things about the book that I appreciate is the naming of names. So often corporate media, or just the broader culture, seem to come to an idea and swallow it whole, as though they created it. And, sadly, writers sometimes too, act as though things sprang full-grown from their heads.

That ignores and erases all of the people, all of the organizations that have been working on those ideas forever. And in your book, you name a lot of people, you name a lot of groups, and it's not just about giving credit where credit is due, it's also about contributing to our understanding of how social change happens.

If you don't support the roots, the tree is going to blow over. So naming groups that have been doing this work, naming media organizations, naming social justice organizations, it just seems so important, and it's one of the things that I assume you're doing as a choice in the book.

SK: Absolutely. Look, I've been a broadcast journalist, before a print journalist, for a long time. And so the way I did journalism was providing a platform for other people to tell their stories, in a way that furthered my agenda, which is social justice—and our common agenda, because the people that I interview with, by and large, are social justice warriors—and so helping to offer them a platform, helping to shape the conversation, to best showcase the important work that they're doing.

So writing a book based on two decades of interviewing folks, I absolutely wanted to name the names and showcase and quote from the people that have taught me about this work.

It was important for me at the very end of the book to have a list of resources, of organizations like FAIR that are doing narrative work, organizations whose work I grew from in writing the book, and who I hope will get all of the love that they deserve from readers, who can walk away thinking, OK, these are the organizations that I want to look to for understanding narrative work, and maybe participating in narrative work.
America's Family

America's Family ([link removed]) (2023)

So that is absolutely important, and I'm sure I've left out several, but there are so many, and they're growing in number, which is what I'm really, really excited about, is that there are more and more organizations that are growing in number that are doing narrative work, that are actively incorporating, into their day-to-day activism, how they can shape the culture.

It's not enough anymore to just have a press person or a communications department. So, for example, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights ([link removed]) in LA made a film that showcases the work that they're trying to do humanizing immigrants.

And I interviewed Angelica Salas on my show about that film, and I write about it. It's called America's Family ([link removed]) . I write about it in the book, how organizations are incorporating narrative work into their actions so that they can change the culture, alongside the policy-shifting that they're trying to achieve.
Yes! Magazine: Together With Earth

Yes! (Spring/15 ([link removed]) )

JJ: I want to talk about Yes! Magazine ([link removed]) , which I've been reading for years. So much of the content of left or independent media is framed in conflict, and framed about the enemy: Here's how the bad guy operates. We need to know this. Oh, here's what the bad guy did today.

And it's very important. It's important to know. And at the same time, I so appreciate space given to talking about the people and the places that are day-to-day addressing and resolving the problems that plague us.

But what is sometimes called "solutions journalism" is considered soft or unserious somehow. And I've talked about this ([link removed]) with my former colleague, Laura Flanders, whose show ([link removed]) is about spotlighting people who are making things work, who are solving problems collectively.

And I just always think, what's so funny ([link removed]) about peace, love and understanding? I feel that more of media could be given to people who are making it work.

SK: Yeah, it's one of the many reasons why I decided to join Yes! Magazine. It is very traumatizing, and feeding cynicism, to engage in crisis journalism, the disaster journalism.

It's something that gets the attraction of people, which is why a lot of journalists do it. It's easy to fuel fear and use fear-based journalism. And, indeed, there's so much wrong in the world that you never run out of things to cover that are kind of depressing.

I found, as a journalist, I was experiencing sometimes secondary PTSD, because my job was to not look away. My job was to look at the injustices, examine them.

When I transitioned to Yes! Magazine a couple of years ago, it was with the intention of trying to focus on the things that people are doing that are very concrete and the challenges that they face, how they're realizing the solutions to the problems of the world, because those solutions have always been there as well. They just haven't gotten the attention they’re due, because they aren't sexy, they don't attract the right kind of attention.
Decolonizing Wealth Project: Connect Relate Belong

Decolonizing Wealth Project ([link removed])

And beyond peace, love and understanding, they are very, very concrete solutions. So, for example, I just returned from a three-day trip to Atlanta, where Yes! Magazine partnered with the Decolonizing Wealth Project ([link removed]) on a conference focused on reparations.

Twenty years ago, reparations for Black folks was seen as a pipe dream, as an idea too radical to be taken seriously.

Randall Robinson ([link removed]) wrote about it, and then eventually Ta-Nehisi Coates ([link removed]) , many years later, wrote about it, and they helped shift the culture to where the idea of reparations now is not so far-fetched, or not seen as so radical. There's congressional legislation around it.

And Yes! Magazine was there, because we were covering all of the people that are helping make reparations a reality. We were talking to the members of the California Task Force on Reparations. We were talking to folks who are doing narrative work to make reparations possible.

And to me, that's not just hopeful, it's essential. If we don't know what we're fighting for, then what are we doing fighting against something, right?

It's so important for us to know the end goal that we can realize.… X, Y and Z are trying it out on this side of the country; maybe this other organization can try a version of that, to see the models of what's working, so that we can realize our just world. That's essential. And so that's why I love working at Yes!.

JJ: And then, also, just internationally, which is something that US media often ignore. We are one world, but corporate news media hide that fact like it's their job. And the world kind of looks like the board in a game of Risk in news media.

But if we're looking at other examples, and other things that we can look to, and people we can be in community with, an international focus is also part of that.

SK: Absolutely. Unfortunately, our corporate journalists have internalized the narrative of national security officials. They've internalized the narrative that it's America versus the rest of the world, instead of people in the United States, and how they can be similar to or different from or engage with people in other countries, and distancing themselves from the national security considerations of government officials is very, very difficult for corporate media to do.

But, yeah, for independent media, for media outlets like Yes! Magazine, it's essential, because there's so much more that unites us than divides us. Climate change affects all of us. Racism affects all of us. Misogyny and patriarchy affect all of us. The rights of children are important to all of us.

And so, yeah, learning from one another is absolutely essential to undermine the injustices perpetrated by power structures. And so that bottom-up journalism, and the bottom-up activism, is where we really need to keep reminding ourselves to focus.

JJ: And then, finally, it's so important to have spaces where you can have this kind of conversation, where you don't have to agree with everything that's said, but you have to preserve a space to have the conversation, as imperfect as that space may be.

So I guess I'll just, finally, ask you to do whatever shout-out you have for independent media, and what you hope the book will do in terms of how it lands with folks.
Rising Up With Sonali

Rising Up With Sonali ([link removed])

SK: Oh, thank you so much for that. Folks can check out my show, RisingUpWithSonali.com ([link removed]) , where I do a weekly broadcast. If you go to RisingUpWithSonali.com, you can not only see the interviews I do every week, but also more information about the book, where you can get a copy of the book.

It's really important. I really hope folks go out and support independent publishers and writers like myself. It's a small, very readable book; it's, I hope, quite inexpensive.

I'll be doing a speaking tour throughout the country, with a book launch in Berkeley at the Berkeley Public Library on June 28, which I hope folks can come out to.

I have lots of events in Southern California, where I'm based, also some in Seattle and Houston coming up, and so I really hope people can come out, have a conversation with me, have a conversation with someone else, check out YesMagazine.org ([link removed]) .

And I’m plugging FAIR. Check out FAIR’s work, please. It was such a resource for me, and it has been such a resource for me for 20 years. I rely on outlets like FAIR and, no, Janine did not pay me to say that.

So please do support your local, independent media as well, wherever you are, your local bookstores. It's important that we do that.

JJ: We're all in it together. We've been speaking with Sonali Kolhatkar, host and executive producer of the daily radio and TV program Rising Up With Sonali, and the racial justice and civil liberties editor at Yes! Magazine.

Her new book Rising Up: ([link removed]) The Power of Narrative in Pursuing Racial Justice is out this month from City Lights. Thank you so much, Sonali, for joining us this week on CountersSpin.

SK: Thank you.
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