[As Jewish Berliners, we are involved, both as an organization and
as individuals, with ongoing traumas that are inherent to this process
of the ongoing Nakba — of the oppression of Palestinians by Zionists
in Palestine.]
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“THE POLICE EXCLUDED PEOPLE FROM OUR DEMONSTRATION AGAINST OUR WILL
AND AGAINST OUR RECOMMENDATION”  
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Phil Butland Interview with Udi Raz (Board Member Jüdische Stimme)
May 26, 2023
The Left Berlin
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_ As Jewish Berliners, we are involved, both as an organization and
as individuals, with ongoing traumas that are inherent to this process
of the ongoing Nakba — of the oppression of Palestinians by Zionists
in Palestine. _

Jüdische Stimme Rally on 20 May, (photo: Phil Butland)

 

THANK YOU, UDI, FOR TALKING TO US. COULD YOU START BY BRIEFLY
INTRODUCING YOURSELF?

Thank you for inviting me for the interview. My name is Udi Raz, and
I’m sitting here in relation to the demonstration that took place on
Saturday the 20th of May, last Saturday. I was there as a board member
of Jüdische Stimme für Gerechte Frieden im Nahost (Jewish Voice for
a Just Peace in the Middle East), which is a registered organisation
here in Germany.

WHY DID THE JÜDISCHE STIMME CALL THE RALLY LAST SATURDAY?

We called the rally to commemorate 75 years of the ongoing Nakba. That
started in 1948, or 1947, depending on how we look at it, but
according to popular narratives this is the 75th year.

As Jewish Berliners, we wanted to create room for ourselves to also
engage in this commemoration. We are deeply involved, both as an
organization and as individuals, with ongoing traumas that are
inherent to this process of the ongoing Nakba — of the oppression of
Palestinians by Zionists in Palestine.

We called this demonstration as one of many similar demonstrations
around the same time. In Berlin, specifically, there are many
different organizations which all have their own way of commemorating
the Nakba. We were one organisation among many.

AFTER THE EVENT, READING SOME OF THE PRESS COVERAGE, SOME OF THE
THINGS REPORTED ARE QUITE INCREDIBLE. THE GENERAL TONE WHICH IS BEING
PUSHED BY THE PRESS AND BY THE POLICE IS THAT YOU WERE HAVING YOUR
PEACEFUL JEWISH DEMONSTRATION, THEN A LOAD OF PALESTINIANS CAME UP,
TOOK OVER YOUR DEMONSTRATION, AND STARTED SHOUTING ANTISEMITIC
SLOGANS.

LET’S TAKE THESE ALLEGATIONS ONE BY ONE. FIRSTLY, WHAT ABOUT THE
CHARGE THAT YOUR DEMO WAS TAKEN OVER BY PALESTINIANS?

The police came to us during the demonstration and said that if we saw
anybody in this crowd who might threaten our physical well-being, we
should report them. We never went to the police with such an
accusation against any of the participants of the demonstration.

While the speeches were taking place, the police came to us again and
asked us about a specific group of people who were standing together.
They asked if we were interested in excluding them from the
demonstration. Again, we very clearly said “No, we don’t want
anybody to be excluded from the demonstration”. We did not feel that
anybody was annoying us or taking over the space of our demonstration.

The police, of course, were not happy with this answer. In reaction,
they decided to exclude these people from our demonstration against
our will and against our recommendation.

WHY DID THE POLICE THINK THAT YOU MIGHT NOT WANT THESE PEOPLE AT YOUR
RALLY?

I believe that the police thought that certain chants that they were
shouting could be intimidating, specifically: “From the river to the
sea, Palestine will be free”. We as an organization have no problem
with this chant. We don’t perceive it as antisemitic. Apparently,
the police do not agree.

WHAT DOES THE SLOGAN “FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA” MEAN TO YOU?

We, as organisation, stand behind the logic that demands freedom to
anyone between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. This
includes equal legal rights. Look, I grew up in Haifa. From an early
age the extent of segregation between the Palestinian and the Jewish
population of the city was very clear to me. During my 12 years in the
Zionist state-education system, I only once met a Palestinian
individual whom I could also call a classmate. It is crystal clear to
me that this is an outcome of an exclusionary governing system. You
see, in the West Bank and in Gaza, the governing system of the Zionist
regime is deadly to Palestinians. This is also why there is urgency
here. Discussing whether this or that is antisemitic or not is
important, but it cannot come at the cost of failing to discuss the
ongoing violations of human rights by Zionists in Palestine, or of
discussing the Nakba. And it cannot come at the cost of basic
democratic rights here in Germany.

AND YET THERE ARE PEOPLE IN GERMANY WHO CONSTRUE THIS SLOGAN AS
ANTISEMITIC. HOW COULD THAT BE?

In order to grasp how this chant could be understood as antisemitic,
we need to go back to the IHRA definition
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antisemitism. According to this definition, any kind of criticism of
the legitimacy of the State of Israel to operate as a racist state, is
antisemitic.

As a result of this, anybody who resists this racist framework is
perceived by many Germans as being antisemitic.

LET’S GO BACK TO THE PRESS REPORTS. SEVERAL REPORTS, INCLUDING FROM
THE LEFT-LIBERAL TAZ, SAY THAT THERE WERE ANTISEMITIC STATEMENTS FROM
THE RALLY WHICH YOU ORGANISED. SOME REPORTS REFER TO THE “FROM THE
RIVER TO THE SEA” CHANT, BUT MOST OF THEM OFFER NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

YOU WEREN’T THERE TILL THE VERY END, BUT THERE WERE PLENTY OF PEOPLE
FROM THE JÜDISCHE STIMME AND PALESTINIANS THROUGHOUT THE RALLY. HAS
ANYONE WHO YOU’VE TALKED TO REPORTED EXPERIENCING ANY ANTISEMITISM?

I haven’t heard of anyone experiencing antisemitism. I haven’t
heard of anyone witnessing antisemitism except the police who argued
that this chant could be antisemitic.

HAS THE JÜDISCHE STIMME DECIDED HOW YOU WANT TO REACT TO THIS PRESS
COVERAGE? THESE ARE SEVERE ALLEGATIONS. SEVERAL NEWSPAPERS, INCLUDING
LIBERAL NEWSPAPERS, ARE ACCUSING YOU OF INDULGING ANTISEMITISM IN YOUR
RALLY.

Thank you for this question. We have just issued an official
statement
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breaks down this media coverage. As you say, even “liberal”
platforms reported what happened from a very distorted perspective.

We, as a democratic society, cannot allow this. We must insist that
the press has a responsibility to at least report what happened and
not to invent their own reality according to mainstream, racist
ideology.

THIS IS THE SECOND YEAR RUNNING THAT DEMONSTRATIONS COMMEMORATING THE
NAKBA HAVE BEEN BANNED IN BERLIN. SOME HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TAKE PLACE
IN OTHER GERMAN CITIES, BUT IN BERLIN THERE HAS BEEN A BLANKET BAN.
WHY BERLIN?

I also asked myself this question. I really don’t know. I believe it
has something to do with Germans trying to come to terms with their
own past, with their own crimes against humanity, by projecting it
onto Palestinians, and not being able to perceive the world from the
perspective of people who suffer exactly under this condition.

Germany is willing to unconditionally support Israel, without even
showing any regard to what Israel is doing. Israel has the most
right-wing extremist government ever, and Germany doesn’t seem to be
bothered by that.

But the right wing, extremist government that Israel has at the moment
is only the tip of the inherently racist, Orientalist, and colonialist
iceberg. It is just hard to believe that we’re talking here about
Germany. where one of the main national narratives is that the
Holocaust should serve as an important lesson to anyone who lives in a
post-Holocaust world.

I understand that many Germans wish to come to terms with what they
perceive as their past. But in the current situation, Palestinians are
often marked as a problem in Germany’s project of coming to terms
with it’s past. Germany’s unconditional siding with Israel means
for many Palestinians being subjected to structural and arbitrary
discrimination, arrests, death, and other ongoing violations of human
rights. In this sense, Germany must free Palestinians from its guilt.

AT THE MOMENT, WE’RE EXPERIENCING TWO THINGS WHICH ARE COMING
TOGETHER. ON THE ONE HAND, THERE IS WHAT PEOPLE CALL GERMANY’S
PALESTINE PROBLEM, WHICH IS IN REALITY THE PALESTINIANS’ GERMANY
PROBLEM. ON THE OTHER, POLICE ARE BEING USED AGAINST DIFFERENT GROUPS,
NOT JUST PALESTINIANS.

THERE IS INCREASED POLICE VIOLENCE AGAINST ENVIRONMENTAL PROTESTERS,
AND MORE ATTACKS ON THE 1ST OF MAY DEMONSTRATIONS. DOES THIS INCREASED
CRIMINALISATION OF PROTEST PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE DIFFERENT
GROUPS WHO ARE BEING ATTACKED TO COME TOGETHER?

It’s exactly the ridiculousness that is inherent to the strategy of
the ruling ideology which is making us fight back. And “we” are
diverse. Look at the demonstration from Saturday. There were people
from such a variety of cultural backgrounds, different life stories,
even different ideologies and understandings of what a just solution
could look like.

So there is no “us” in the sense that we speak in one voice, but
there is an “us” as different groups, different individuals who
understand what the problem is, and where the problem lies, namely in
the structure that rules us, that makes us into this imagined unified
group.

WITHIN THIS UNIFIED GROUP, WHAT IS THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE JÜDISCHE
STIMME? AND WHAT ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO NEXT?

First and foremost, it is important to stress that we act as human
being who see also Palestinians as human beings. As Jews, we
understand that the general discourse of in Germany includes a coming
to terms with the subject of Jewishness. As part of this discourse, we
have something to say. But so do other Jews with different opinions.
Many Jews in the public sphere in Germany translate their subjectivity
as Jews into some sort of capital. It is by no mean a phenomenon
inherent to Jewishness. It characterises rather the essence of
identity politics, that is prevalent also in Germany. We are one of
the many, many Jewish individuals and groups who speak as Jews in a
very specific political environment.

IT WAS INTERESTING THAT AT THE QUOTE-UNQUOTE “ANTISEMITIC”
DEMONSTRATION, THE FIRST TWO PEOPLE I SAW BEING ARRESTED WERE JEWISH.
I BELIEVE THAT THE RALLY ORGANISER IS BEING CHARGED WITH ASSAULTING A
POLICE OFFICER, AND THE ARTIST ADAM BROOMBERG
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WHO GREW UP IN APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA, WAS ALSO BRUTALLY ATTACKED BY
POLICE. IT SEEMS THAT THE GERMAN POLICE ARE ATTACKING JEWS IN THE NAME
OF DEFENDING JUDAISM.

That’s it. It’s a ridiculous situation. The Berlin Police does not
protect Jews as such. On the contrary, as we saw on Saturday, the
fight against antisemitism as led by the Berlin Police is dangerous
for Jews.

WHAT HAPPENS NOW? IT SEEMS THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CHARGED, AND
OTHERS HAVEN’T. WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO TO SUPPORT THOSE WHO WERE
ARRESTED? HOW CAN WE ENSURE THAT WE CAN DEMONSTRATE IN BERLIN AGAIN?

I think that it’s important to anyone who is interested in what’s
going on and how to get more involved that they follow the different
channels that provide information — theleftberlin website for
example. You can also subscribe to our Newsletter
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with us and with people around you. Know that you are part of a big
movement, a huge movement that is getting ever bigger. Among us are
professionals who specialise in providing legal support, managing
public relations, administrators, artists, students, and the list goes
on. Everyone who is willing to be part of this movement for a just
peace in Palestine must know that they’re not alone. Precisely
because the ruling power is so overwhelming, sometimes it feels that
voices such as ours cannot be shared or are not allowed to be heard.
This is exactly the wrong lesson, not only from history, but also from
the demonstration that happened on Saturday.

Our message is that we need to stay connected and network together.
This doesn’t mean that we need to think the same. But we have a huge
problem in Germany, and that problem is called Germany.

ONE FINAL QUESTION. HOW DO PEOPLE FIND OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT JÜDISCHE
STIMME IS DOING?

They can go to our Website [[link removed]],
register for our mailing list, follow us on facebook
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to get to know new people who are interested in coming together.

_Udi Raz is a board member of Jüdische Stimme für Gerechte Frieden
im Nahost (Jewish Voice for a Just Peace in the Middle East)._

_Phil Butland is a socialist from Bradford, Northern England. He is
the founder and co-speaker of Die LINKE Berlin Internationals.
Alongside his political activities, Phil is the curator of the
CinePhil Berliner Film Blog [link removed]

_The Left Berlin is a community of international progressives in
Berlin. We run an online journalism project hosting a range of
left-wing perspectives in English, as well as collaborating on
progressive campaigns and events in the city. The site is run by a
team of volunteer editors, writers and translators._

* Berlin
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* Jewish peace movement
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* Germany
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* Nabka
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* Holocaust
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* Palestinians
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