[The blunt fact about the cash bail system in the US is that it
creates a two-tier system of “justice” in which the presumption of
innocence is denied to people who have not been convicted of anything
but the “crime” of being poor.]
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CASH BAIL IS AN ABOMINATION OF JUSTICE. WE SHOULD GET RID OF IT  
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Mansa Musa interview with David Gaspar
May 29, 2023
Real News Network
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_ The blunt fact about the cash bail system in the US is that it
creates a two-tier system of “justice” in which the presumption of
innocence is denied to people who have not been convicted of anything
but the “crime” of being poor. _

,

 

While the underlying logic of the cash bail system in the US may sound
convincing on paper, in practice it has become a means of denying
justice to, and destroying the lives of, people who have not even been
convicted of a crime. “The US Constitution prohibits ‘excessive
bail’” The Bail Project notes on their website. “Excessive bail
forces people to stay in jail—even though they’ve not been
convicted of anything. Unfortunately, today judges routinely set bail
amounts that exceed what most people can afford. The result? Jails are
full of people waiting for trial. They are presumed innocent on paper,
but in practice, they are being held for weeks, months, and sometimes
years as they wait for trial.” David Gaspar, CEO of The Bail
Project, joins Mansa Musa on _Rattling the Bars_ to talk about how
cash bail creates a two-tier system of justice that punishes people
for the “crime” of being poor—and what we can do about it.

David Gaspar [[link removed]] is the
Chief Executive Officer of The Bail Project
[[link removed]], a nonprofit organization that provides
free bail assistance to those in need and advocates for better, more
humane pretrial policies. A formerly incarcerated individual directly
affected by the cash bail system, Mr. Gaspar earned his GED and
bachelor’s degree and studied law while in prison, won his appeal,
and was released 11 years early.

TRANSCRIPT

MANSA MUSA:  Welcome to this edition of _Rattling the Bars_. I’m
Mansa Musa. In this country, he’s innocent or she’s innocent until
proven guilty. In this society and our judicial system, this right
very rarely gets acknowledged. Mainly when you get arrested and you
can’t afford to get out because of excessive bail. An excessive bail
might be in the form of the person’s inability to pay the bail. The
bail might not be excessive for Donald Trump, the bail might not be
excessive for Bernie Madoff, but the bail for the average person would
be excessive. Here to talk about cash bail and all things relative to
bail reform is David Gaspar of The Bail Project. Welcome, David.

DAVID GASPAR:  All right. Thank you for having me.

MANSA MUSA:  Tell our audience a little bit about yourself.

DAVID GASPAR:  I’m currently the CEO of The Bail Project. It’s a
national not-for-profit that pays the cash bail on behalf of
individuals in a position of need. I am somebody who has been
system-impacted. At the age of 22 years old, I got sentenced to 21
years in prison. In large part, I received that sentence as a plea
bargain, not understanding what my rights were, not being able to
afford bail, and feeling the pressures of the system weighing down on
myself as well as my family.

I ended up going to prison and getting my education. I wrote and filed
my own appeal and ended up giving the state back 11 years of the
21-year sentence they gave me. But what was most surprising and
hurtful to me, was that when I went back for resentencing, my lawyer
at that time said I had already done five years more than I should
have ever done. And when I think about that and about the impact bail
had on my life, and my inability to advocate for my innocence or a
just sentence, it empowered me and put a fire inside of me that made
me want to be part of this work now.

MANSA MUSA:  Well, tell us about The Bail Project. Give us an
overview of what The Bail Project is and how it operates before we go
into some of the aspects of cash bail.

DAVID GASPAR:  Yeah. The starting point is somebody finding
themselves in the situation of needing assistance with bail. So this
is somebody who is sitting in county jail and has not yet been
convicted of anything. The only thing preventing them from actually
having the freedom of being reunited with their family, as well as
their ability to continue living their life, is the fact that they
don’t have enough money in their pocket or enough money in their
bank account. 

And so a loved one on their behalf – Could be a wife, partner, could
be a child – Will reach out to us and they’ll say, hey, we have a
loved one that is currently sitting in jail and could require your
help. And then we’ll reach out to the individual. We’ll schedule
what we call an interview, but it’s our opportunity to talk to them
directly. And if we feel like we have the opportunity and the ability
to be able to support them post-release, then we’ll go ahead and
post their bond and then support them and return them to court
successfully.

MANSA MUSA:  I opened up earlier talking about how in this country,
everybody has a right to bail and to not be given an excessive bail.
Talk about how this cash bail draconian system got to where it’s at
right now in terms of creating a roadblock for people being able to
get out for no reason other than not having the ability to pay 10%. I
was in the county jail and I recall a guy came in there and he had a
$1,000 bail and he couldn’t pay the 10%. So what he did was wound up
staying in the detention center for a year, and when he went back, the
judge gave him time served. Talk about that.

DAVID GASPAR:  So when we’re talking about bail, it’s important
to kind of ground that. This is what we see in the Constitution of the
US. The protection against excessive bail is the language, but we also
have the right to due process, the right to be able to face our
accusers and the right to a speedy trial. And all of these rights,
these principles that we stand on as a nation, they look and sound
great on paper. It’s when we get to practice that we see this
breakdown and what we see on TV also misinforms the public aspect.
‘Cause on TV it’s more aligned with what we see on paper. It’s a
script for a narrative for a television show versus the reality that
we live in. 

And so what The Bail Project’s work is, is first proving that money
is the actual driver that brings people back to court. And we’ve
been able to do that successfully. 92% of the people that we bail out
return to court. So they’re coming back, they don’t have any money
in the game, they have no personal interest other than wanting to put
this to rest, put closure to it, and be able to move forward in life.
And there was an article that came out last year that said more than
half of our American population doesn’t even have $500 in their bank
account for an emergency. So when you stop and think about how they
don’t even have $500 for an emergency, now you’re going to give
them a $10,000 bond. You’re going to give them a $15,000 bond. Even
if it was a $500 bond, what you’re doing is depleting that household
by any means that they have to respond to an emergency.

But that’s for the bond itself. What about the days that they lost
at work, what about the potential of them losing their job? What about
the potential of them losing their children, their housing, and the
ability to make their next car payment? When you hold somebody in jail
each and every passing day, you are harming that individual and the
family unit they’re part of. And so when we talk about the harms,
when we talk about the need that’s there, protecting ourselves
against excessive bail is to keep our family units intact, to keep our
communities whole, and to allow our actual nation to succeed. When we
start to tear that apart, what ends up happening is we cannibalize our
communities, those who are the backbone, the Constitution, the
preamble, “We the People–”

Well, which people are we talking about? Those with money that benefit
from these systems or those without that are harmed by them? And so at
the end of the day what we’re trying to do is level that playing
field. We’re trying to make money not be the issue that’s standing
between somebody and their freedom and allowing them to go home, keep
their life as intact as possible, and support them with court
reminders and transportation assistance so that they can successfully
return to court and put closure to that bad moment of their life.

MANSA MUSA:  And you made a good observation earlier about the
assumption of innocence, and then inherent in that right is the
presumption that you have a right to a speedy trial. You have a right
to confront your accuser. Now, if all things are perfect – And we
know in _Law and Order_ all things are perfect on TV – We know on
every TV show where it’s the law and some kind of disorder, then we
know that it’s a perfect scenario. But in the real world, we know
it’s not. And the fact that a person has a right to a speedy trial
when they’re first arrested, they’re offered this right. 

Okay, I want a speedy trial. Okay, now you’re not going to give me a
bond. Okay, you’re not going to give me a bond and you’re not
going to give me a speedy trial. And then what you’re going to do is
you’re going to give me a public defender ’cause I can’t afford
to get a bond, I can’t afford an attorney. You give me a public
defender and now my speedy trial is getting waived because it’s
being postponed because they can’t find my accuser. Or they’re
playing the waiting game until they get me to a point where I can’t
get bail, I can’t get a speedy trial. The only thing I can get is
the offer they put on the table. And that’s the plea bargain. And
this is premeditated on the part of the state?

DAVID GASPAR:  I personally can’t go as far as to say that’s
premeditated. What I can say is that we have a system that has been
operating like this for decades. So it’s not unknown to people.
It’s not one of those things where, wow, I wish I would’ve known
that so I could have done something about it. We know this is how it
works, we know this is how it moves. And going to the rights you were
naming: being able to stand in a courtroom for your bail hearing and
have an opportunity to make your case isn’t even afforded to
everybody upon incarceration.

You walk in there and sometimes it’s already predetermined and
you’re hearing the outcome for the first time. And what we want to
do, as The Bail Project, is create a bail hearing where the defense
has an opportunity to put forth their case. The state has the
opportunity to put forth its case and there is a weighed decision
point that the judge makes on record that can be evaluated. That’s
what we all believe is happening anyway, so why are we not moving in
that direction? But to get back to your question, if we know it’s
not working for the people and we understand that there’s
significant harm that’s being caused by it, there is a valid
question that should be asked. And that’s why do we allow it to
persist?

MANSA MUSA:  That’s right, that’s right. And, let’s flush that
out about that process, ’cause what you said, that’s the law. This
is not a theory, this is supposed to be what takes place. The purpose
of a bail hearing is to determine whether or not the person should be
released on bail. Now, inherent in that concept – And you can weigh
in on this when you want – Inherent in that concept is, the state
put on evidence and information as to why bail should not be granted.
That’s when there’s no bail. Or, why an excessive bail should be
granted or why the state is not opposing being released on recon. The
defendant is allowed to present information as to, one, why they’re
a good candidate to be released on a low bail, and two, the damage
that’s going to be done if they remain in this environment. All of
these factors are supposed to be taken into account, am I correct?

DAVID GASPAR:  Yes. Yeah, you are.

MANSA MUSA:  Then the question becomes, why is this going on? And
David, I wanted you to flush this out because we’re not talking
about, when we say over 2,000 people in the detention center in Cook
County in Chicago, we’re not talking about 2,000 people that have a
capital offense. We’re not talking about 2,000 people that are a
flight risk. We’re not talking about 2,000 people that are
recidivated. We’re talking about people that got caught in a
situation that ultimately might result in their innocence, might
result in exoneration. But in between then and there, they’re not
given the opportunity to get the courts, going back to what you say,
being back inside. Why is this, why are we allowing it to exist?

DAVID GASPAR:  Yeah, it’s a great question. I’ll try to unpack
that a little bit, but I’ll go back to your point. We have over half
a million people in our jails across the nation, and more than half of
them are there without a conviction. So they’re there for the
reasons that you said, they simply can’t afford the money. But
what’s important for people to understand as well is that those
three areas: being held without bond, being released with bond, and
being released without bond, are the three options that a judge has in
front of them. But two of them are release, so even though the bond is
the triggering factor, the judge has determined that this person is
safe to go back into society, this person is, to what they have in
front of them, not going to cause any harm. That’s the judge’s
decision that they’ve made.

Now, when we talk about the money, why does money need to be the
factor when the money disproportionately impacts those within a
poverty level? We know that people of color are the most impacted by
these decisions, so why do we allow that persistence and that
persistence in that way? And a lot of it goes back to what is easy.
When we think about human nature, change is difficult for people. So
if we’ve already got a process in place, unless we find an easier
way to get people to engage, they’re going to stand their ground on
where they are. But there’s something else that we already know:
bonds, and bail in general, are about money.

And so we have to ask ourselves, who’s benefiting, who’s profiting
at the end of the day? And we can say there’s a whole magnitude or
multitude of individuals that benefit from this. But what cannot be
lost at any given point in time is that we’re not talking about a
few million dollars here and there. We’re talking
multi-billion-dollar profits being made from keeping people
incarcerated, pretrial. Once again, people that have not been
convicted of anything, people that the judge has determined that, if
they’ve got the money, they’re perfectly fine to go back into
society. 

So we’re not talking about releasing dangerous people. The judge has
it within their discretion, if they deem somebody to be dangerous, a
threat to the community, they can hold them without bail. They can
keep them. The decision point is why is the money still a factor if
you’ve already determined this person is eligible for release? As
long as they’ve got the right amount of money in their pocket. Now
we have to ask, well who’s benefiting from this? Who’s potentially
profiting from that decision?

MANSA MUSA:  And on that point, as we wrap up, we know that the
prison industrial complex, mass incarceration, which is a new form of
slavery, is profitable. So all hands are on deck when it comes to
fueling it, we know the county jails have the fuel. In the few minutes
that we’ve got left, let’s talk about bail reform. Where are we in
terms of our national movement for bail reform? ‘Cause I’ve been
in some spaces where they have made some astronomical progress in
certain states, in certain cities. Where are we in terms of having a
national movement for bail reform? Because as you said, the effect
that it has is people lose their jobs, people lose their houses,
people lose their medical, people lose their lives. So where are we in
terms of bail reform?

DAVID GASPAR:  Yeah, great question. First I’ll start with, you
mentioned the prison industrial complex. Pretrial jail populations
being where they are and the impact you named earlier, how people had
taken plea bargains to put an end to it, to be able to move forward,
is one of the leading factors to the prison population as we see it
today. So it’s one of the leading drivers. If we could fix that on
the front end, we wouldn’t see all this on the back end. With that
said, where’s bail reform?

During these more recent election cycles, we saw the phrase “bail
reform” being weaponized. And it confused people as to, what does
that mean? What is bail reform and how does that impact me? And we saw
them make a close association to the violence, all of the rise in
violence that’s happening throughout our nation. And there’s no
empirical evidence to say that there is a correlation between bail
reform and not. As you said, there are few places that have put forth
any meaningful bail reform. But we see the violence that people are
pointing to happening in areas where bail reform has not even been
part of the conversation, part of the change that could have even
potentially contributed to that. So there’s a lot of work that needs
to be done to dispel the misinformation that was spread during that
period.

Now, what is bail reform and where are we today? Bail reform is about
answering the question, is it necessary? Does it serve a purpose in
our society today? And we’ve been able to prove that it has no
place. Money is not what’s bringing people back to court. Money is
not what’s preventing people from being a flight risk. What
money’s doing is keeping people incarcerated unnecessarily and
causing additional harm to their life. That, we have been able to
prove. What taking the umbrella of bail reform has also done is
stopped us from talking about specific issues that have led to our
jail populations growing: mental health and substance mistreatment.
These are things that have been diagnosed as actual medical
conditions.

Why are we treating them with a cell? Why are we locking people in a
concrete box and telling them their mental health needs to get better
on its own for them to be successful, Instead of giving them medical
attention? Why are we saying that locking you in this box, and the
abstinence or us keeping you away from whatever your addiction is, is
going to make you better? Let’s treat those the way that they need
to be treated. And first and foremost, let’s treat them with respect
by allowing them space and conversation and not bunching them
underneath the bail reform umbrella. Then we could talk about
homelessness, poverty. These are conditions that people live with.
These aren’t choices. Somebody didn’t wake up this morning and
say, I feel like I’m going to be broke today. Let’s look at what
their opportunities are and how we can support them in being
successful in landing, not a job, but a meaningful job that’s going
to uplift them and their family unit.

Let’s take somebody who’s homeless and figure out how we get them
the help they need so they’re no longer on the streets and in need
of assistance. And then once again, let’s give those individuals
that have mental health and substance abuse challenges the medical
attention they deserve. Then we can start to talk about, well hold up,
we’ve already released half the jail population anyways by
addressing the underlying causes that led somebody to that potential
interaction with law enforcement. And if we can even solve those, we
can have a much more honest conversation about what bail reform means.

MANSA MUSA:  Thank you, man. Look, there you have it, The Real News.
We are criminalizing poverty. It’s poverty that’s being
criminalized and not criminal activity as we know it. And we ask that
our listeners and our viewers take note of this. We’re not talking
about bail reform, we’re talking about reforming a society that
penalizes and criminalizes poverty. And if they change the poverty
paradigm, then we won’t have to be having a conversation about the
money ’cause we already know it’s not the money that’s the cause
of people not coming back to court. It’s not the money that causes
people to remain in prison. It’s poverty and poverty alone. Thank
you, David. We appreciate you coming on. How can we get in touch with
you? How can our viewers and listeners get in touch with you?

DAVID GASPAR:  So you can go to bailproject.org. That is our website
and you can reach out to us today.

MANSA MUSA:  All right. And we remind our listeners and our viewers
to continue to support _Rattling the Bars_ and The Real News. You
only get this kind of information from _Rattling the Bars_ on The
Real News. You’re not going to get a David on NBC or CBS or _Fox
News_. You’re not going to get a David talking about poverty and how
poverty is being used, is being criminalized. You’re not going to
get this anywhere but here. And we ask that you continue to support
this network and continue to support _Rattling the Bars_. Thank you
very much, David.

DAVID GASPAR:  Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

_Mansa Musa, also known as Charles Hopkins, is a 70-year-old social
activist and former Black Panther. He was released from prison on
December 5, 2019, after serving 48 years, nine months, 5 days, 16
hours, 10 minutes. He co-hosts the TRNN original show Rattling the
Bars._

_David Gaspar [[link removed]] is the
Chief Executive Officer of The Bail Project
[[link removed]], a nonprofit organization that provides
free bail assistance to those in need and advocates for better, more
humane pretrial policies. A formerly incarcerated individual directly
affected by the cash bail system, Mr. Gaspar earned his GED and
bachelor’s degree and studied law while in prison, won his appeal,
and was released 11 years early._

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